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It's a nice idea but it won't gain traction as it's still designed with 2000's era computing in mind. Nobody manages an entire complex system within a specific
by throwaway984393 5y ago
It's a nice idea but it won't gain traction as it's still designed with 2000's era computing in mind. Nobody manages an entire complex system within a specific Linux distribution anymore. There is a vast ecosystem of tooling, systems, protocols, networks, services, that comprise modern distributed systems. All these things exist regardless of the Linux distro.
In fact, I will predict right now the death of Linux as a dominant backend computing platform. It's sort of happened already. Sure, Linux is the kernel that runs the host machines that the cloud runs on. But the services are increasingly serverless/kernel-less, or run on micro-vms running either Linux or another kernel, or run in containers made of a half dozen different base distros. All the Linux I/O is just passed to an outer layer with a universal adapter, so you can mix and match networking, filesystems, logging platforms, policy governance, orchestration, scheduling, etc. I spend nearly all of my time building systems by tuning software and services that have almost nothing to do with Linux.
Linux distros will still be around in one form or another. But long gone are the days where most people define their system or security based on a particular distro. Hell, most of the software used in the cloud today isn't even packaged by distros. Linux has become just a kernel again, the distros just a fancy installer for GNU tools.
They're using a lot of advanced tech and advertising having to "maintain fewer virtual computers", whatever that means. But it also seems their tech is more complex and less compatible with existing components. There's no clear idea of how a developer's supposed to take their code on their laptop, test it, and ship it to production as one immutable image. If it's not as simple as containers, it's not going to replace them.
Also, it's interesting that they seem to allude to immutability, but don't mention the principle by name at all. It seems like whomever is developing this doesn't run large distributed systems.
- seniorivn 5y agoyou missed the fact that it's nixos based. It means it is a system to declaratively define compartmentalized well integrated(including GUI) system, at the moment it's based on Linux and other regular Gnu/Linux but it could relatively easy change any of them
- SkyMarshal 5y ago> Interestingly, of all the buzzwords this distro uses, none include "immutable", which is the single most important concept in modern systems. Since this system is based on NixOS and the Nix package manager, immutable is implied. Any change you make to a Nix/NixOS system results in a full rebuild of the system, and pointers to the new system updated. Current and all prior builds remain immutable.
- throwaway984393 5y agoYeah I've never used Nix so I don't know how it relates to cloud systems. As a developer, how would I use Nix to develop an app on my machine, and ship it to 1,000 cloud-orchestrated systems, using the same immutable image? Is there any reason why one would use Nix with Docker instead of Debian with Docker? Keep in mind that all large-scale systems work based on deploying container images. If it's not in a container image, it's not getting deployed.
- sterlind 5y agoNix basically lets you compile to Docker containers, rather than running a pipeline of scripts with Dockerfiles. You can do that really fast, since you don't have to run the container to build it, and you can make images really small, because they'll contain exactly what they need. It's like the difference between shipping an app and shipping an OS with the app-preinstalled, except in this case neither has any external dependencies to worry about.
- fwip 5y agoAlso, the nix expression you build an image with is deterministic, unlike Dockerfiles, which by-design aren't. (Dockerfiles are not the only way to build images, of course, but they are a common one).
- throwaway984393 5y agoWell that's good that it can make container images. Sounds like the main advantage is it's faster to install packages in the container image. But I don't understand how this could prevent you from still needing a pipeline of scripts. Installing packages is only a small part of building a typical container image, especially for custom apps being built to run in the cloud. Even if you have your dependencies, you need to compile, run tests, and potentially customize the files inside the container, typically using the programs already installed in the container. So since you're already running a pipeline of scripts in a container right after installing package deps, I'm not sure why one would use Nix for this when Debian works just as well?
- Ericson2314 5y agoYou basically wrote "it won't succeed because everything is going to go to shit". Well, maybe, but I hope not! Our industry shamelessly imitates of the limping, stagnant, service economy in doing these things, and we call ourselves the future!
- throwaway510921 5y ago>If it's not as simple as containers, it's not going to replace them. Nix is more (or less) than a container. It depends, what you are targeting with your nix-project. You can either build a minimal NixOS, that has only a kernel, the minimum required user land and your project and its dependencies. Or build a stand alone docker (etc.) image and spin it up. Or you can use the nix shell to replicate just the dependencies of your project in that sub shell for other developers or testing. I just recently saw a convincing video about nix, comparing it to docker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfIDYQ36X0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfIDYQ36X0k