7 ms·

> I hate to sound like a nutter--I'm a STEM major, I know how to "science"--but I don't trust that they actually have considered the developmental effects on in

> I hate to sound like a nutter--I'm a STEM major, I know how to "science"--but I don't trust that they actually have considered the developmental effects on infants not being able to see faces for 8 hours a day at daycare. It's a shame that you have to defend not being crazy to say that a child not seeing faces won't have some kind of psychological impact when for all of human history (the biological perspective) we have seen the faces of our elders, peers and parents.

jgwil2 5y ago
Absent any scientific evidence, it's a rather extraordinary claim. There had been no human flight throughout human history until ~100 years ago, yet GP did not have any fear about flying with his family.
- isoskeles 5y ago
  I suspect we will never run this through a controlled scientific experiment and thus will never 'know' what could be the long-term effects of partially hiding human faces from children, because very few people would sign up their children for such an experiment. (And I would urge any intellectually curious people who are also laser-focused on empiricism as the only valid way to acquire knowledge, to instead apply rational thought to the question. Why don't we have any scientific evidence on the matter?)
  - jgwil2 5y ago
    > apply rational thought to the question. Okay, I'll give that a try: the benefits of wearing masks in public during a pandemic are known, whereas any harm that might be caused by occasionally exposing children to the sight of partially covered human faces is unknown. Therefore, to minimize harm, we should favour masking.
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      This does not follow - your previous statements do not provide any evidence that masking is the choice that minimizes harm, unknown harm definitely does not mean no harm, it may be smaller or larger than the benefit. In order to make any statement whatsoever about whether the benefit outweighs the (unknown) harm, there needs to be at least some attempt to make a reasonable estimation on how large (or small) that harm is. Ignoring it essentially means making a strong assumption that the harm is absolutely insignificant, but is that really the best informed guess specialists can make?
      - tdfx 5y ago
        We are fairly certain that the real-world use of cloth masks and face coverings can only supply limited benefit, so the threshold for harm to make them not worth it may not be that high [0]. You can support wearing masks for adults in motor vehicle agencies (limited harm, limited benefit) and still realize that young children in daycare should not be required to be masked all day (potentially high developmental harm, limited benefit). "In summary, though we support mask wearing by the general public, we continue to conclude that cloth masks and face coverings are likely to have limited impact on lowering COVID-19 transmission, because they have minimal ability to prevent the emission of small particles, offer limited personal protection with respect to small particle inhalation, and should not be recommended as a replacement for physical distancing or reducing time in enclosed spaces with many potentially infectious people." [0] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commenta...
      - jgwil2 5y ago
        My original comment suggested simply that the claim that wearing masks around children would harm them requires evidence. But the comment I was responding to here made the claim that the harm caused by masking in front of children is unknowable. I submit that if a harm is truly unknowable then we may as well treat it as no harm, since in this case common sense tells us that children are adaptable and resilient. But please, if you have a reasonable estimation, do share.
  - droidist2 5y ago
    > Why don't we have any scientific evidence on the matter? Because it would be too cruel of an experiment to run.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      But is it not too cruel to impose it on population by force, without even any experiment?
  - yosame 5y ago
    We also have no good scientific evidence on whether parachutes are effective. You can't knowingly run an experiment that could cause harm to the participants.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      You can’t, in the “not allowed to” sense of the word. However, you sure are able to run such experiments, and for many of them, you will find plenty of volunteers too. However, the modern science establishment still won’t allow you to run such experiment, because it is “””unethical”””. Of course, governments are not bound by any of that stuff, and will mandate all kinds of shit that would be unethical to do in the course of experimental science. As a result, because scientists are not allowed to experiment on fully informed and consenting volunteers, governments run their own experiments on their subjects that they never asked for opinion or offered right to refuse.
    - isolli 5y ago
      RCTs, by definition, can cause harm to either arm of the trial (depending on whether the intervention is harmful or beneficial). We routinely accept that as the cost of advancing knowledge and avoiding interventions that would do more harm than good.
popcube 5y ago
yes, this opinion sounds probably correct:( baby learning everything from environment...please do not do experiment
pharrington 5y ago
If you think a few months of mask wearing at school is bad for a child's psychology, just wait until you find out about social media!
- dham 5y ago
  I have a son in first grade and he's been really down about masking since last year. We've been kind of sad about it it too and worry about him, but honestly this makes me feel a little better. I'm not being sarcastic.
  - pharrington 5y ago
    Aw, thank you. Best wishes for you and your son.
- rayiner 5y ago
  We’re going on two years. My three year old has never experienced normal school (or a real birthday party) and my eight year old doesn’t remember much about life before masks in schools. I’m not going to experiment on my youngest to see what happens when an infant spends all day surrounded by masked people at daycare. I’m just not. If things don’t normalize here in Maryland by the time my wife’s done with maternity leave I’m moving to Florida or Texas.
  - a_conservative 5y ago
    This comment really hit me hard, Rayiner. I'm sending good thoughts and prayers to you and your family and every family with small children. Reading another massive thread on HN about covid and vaccines. We are all drawn to it like a moth to the flame, trying to hash all of these differences out. I hope some good can come out of all of this.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      Thank you!

jgwil2 5y ago

Absent any scientific evidence, it's a rather extraordinary claim. There had been no human flight throughout human history until ~100 years ago, yet GP did not have any fear about flying with his family.

isoskeles 5y ago
I suspect we will never run this through a controlled scientific experiment and thus will never 'know' what could be the long-term effects of partially hiding human faces from children, because very few people would sign up their children for such an experiment. (And I would urge any intellectually curious people who are also laser-focused on empiricism as the only valid way to acquire knowledge, to instead apply rational thought to the question. Why don't we have any scientific evidence on the matter?)
- jgwil2 5y ago
  > apply rational thought to the question. Okay, I'll give that a try: the benefits of wearing masks in public during a pandemic are known, whereas any harm that might be caused by occasionally exposing children to the sight of partially covered human faces is unknown. Therefore, to minimize harm, we should favour masking.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    This does not follow - your previous statements do not provide any evidence that masking is the choice that minimizes harm, unknown harm definitely does not mean no harm, it may be smaller or larger than the benefit. In order to make any statement whatsoever about whether the benefit outweighs the (unknown) harm, there needs to be at least some attempt to make a reasonable estimation on how large (or small) that harm is. Ignoring it essentially means making a strong assumption that the harm is absolutely insignificant, but is that really the best informed guess specialists can make?
    - tdfx 5y ago
      We are fairly certain that the real-world use of cloth masks and face coverings can only supply limited benefit, so the threshold for harm to make them not worth it may not be that high [0]. You can support wearing masks for adults in motor vehicle agencies (limited harm, limited benefit) and still realize that young children in daycare should not be required to be masked all day (potentially high developmental harm, limited benefit). "In summary, though we support mask wearing by the general public, we continue to conclude that cloth masks and face coverings are likely to have limited impact on lowering COVID-19 transmission, because they have minimal ability to prevent the emission of small particles, offer limited personal protection with respect to small particle inhalation, and should not be recommended as a replacement for physical distancing or reducing time in enclosed spaces with many potentially infectious people." [0] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commenta...
    - jgwil2 5y ago
      My original comment suggested simply that the claim that wearing masks around children would harm them requires evidence. But the comment I was responding to here made the claim that the harm caused by masking in front of children is unknowable. I submit that if a harm is truly unknowable then we may as well treat it as no harm, since in this case common sense tells us that children are adaptable and resilient. But please, if you have a reasonable estimation, do share.
- droidist2 5y ago
  > Why don't we have any scientific evidence on the matter? Because it would be too cruel of an experiment to run.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    But is it not too cruel to impose it on population by force, without even any experiment?
- yosame 5y ago
  We also have no good scientific evidence on whether parachutes are effective. You can't knowingly run an experiment that could cause harm to the participants.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    You can’t, in the “not allowed to” sense of the word. However, you sure are able to run such experiments, and for many of them, you will find plenty of volunteers too. However, the modern science establishment still won’t allow you to run such experiment, because it is “””unethical”””. Of course, governments are not bound by any of that stuff, and will mandate all kinds of shit that would be unethical to do in the course of experimental science. As a result, because scientists are not allowed to experiment on fully informed and consenting volunteers, governments run their own experiments on their subjects that they never asked for opinion or offered right to refuse.
  - isolli 5y ago
    RCTs, by definition, can cause harm to either arm of the trial (depending on whether the intervention is harmful or beneficial). We routinely accept that as the cost of advancing knowledge and avoiding interventions that would do more harm than good.

popcube 5y ago

yes, this opinion sounds probably correct:( baby learning everything from environment...please do not do experiment

pharrington 5y ago

If you think a few months of mask wearing at school is bad for a child's psychology, just wait until you find out about social media!

dham 5y ago
I have a son in first grade and he's been really down about masking since last year. We've been kind of sad about it it too and worry about him, but honestly this makes me feel a little better. I'm not being sarcastic.
- pharrington 5y ago
  Aw, thank you. Best wishes for you and your son.
rayiner 5y ago
We’re going on two years. My three year old has never experienced normal school (or a real birthday party) and my eight year old doesn’t remember much about life before masks in schools. I’m not going to experiment on my youngest to see what happens when an infant spends all day surrounded by masked people at daycare. I’m just not. If things don’t normalize here in Maryland by the time my wife’s done with maternity leave I’m moving to Florida or Texas.
- a_conservative 5y ago
  This comment really hit me hard, Rayiner. I'm sending good thoughts and prayers to you and your family and every family with small children. Reading another massive thread on HN about covid and vaccines. We are all drawn to it like a moth to the flame, trying to hash all of these differences out. I hope some good can come out of all of this.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    Thank you!