7 ms·

> Which leads to more deaths and outbreaks. Worse, it leads to 1. new COVID variants, some of which will be worse than what we have, 2. more deaths from peop

by glogla 5y ago

> Which leads to more deaths and outbreaks. Worse, it leads to 1. new COVID variants, some of which will be worse than what we have, 2. more deaths from people who had some other health emergency while unvaccinated idiots are slowly dying in the hospitals taking valuable beds, and 3. to more burned out, dead and PTSD suffering healthcare personal. I would recommend everyone to browse [1] and [2]. Not being vaccinated if you can, is truly disgusting, selfish and stupid choice. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ [2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/nursing/ https://old.reddit.com/r/nursing/

swader999 5y ago
If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. Mass vaccinating the entire population for a respiratory virus that mutates so easily creates a whole host of other problems and a never ending pandemic of variants that may actually get more severe.
- jowday 5y ago
  >If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. But there's a chance of you spreading the infection to someone who's vulnerable in the process of recovering from it. Or someone else who ends up spreading it to someone who's vulnerable. Could just be that you pass by someone in your apartment building on the way to pick up your antibodies. Or exhausting medical care supplies if you do end up needing treatment. I'm not equipped to tell whether your claim about mass vaccinations are true, but if that's correct are yearly flu shots also a bad idea?
  - swader999 5y ago
    If you are naive and not vaccinated then when you get covid you'll likely notice it, isolate and not spread it (if it is particularly severe you may be bed ridden and unable to be social). If vaccinated and getting a less severe infection you may not need to isolate and likely be more social and prone to spread it. Yearly flu shots if they went out to the entire population would most likely create a similar problem. But with only 40% of the uptake and usually to the more vulnerable they haven't had this effect. Mass vaccinations to a virus like polio make perfect sense because this virus is not able to mutate and still successfully infect the host. You can confer long lasting immunity with vacinations on this. The spike protein on Sars can mutate many ways to Sunday and still break through the cell wall. So your constantly reformulating and boosting and trying to keep ahead of a changing target that if left to its own devices would just peter out due to it becoming less and less severe (too severe and it dies due to less transmission, less severe get more transmission and win and the virus becomes more benign over time). With a leaky vacccine you can be a happy chicken with a severe variant and be totally fine until your immunity wanes and the next designed booster is off the mark. See this: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-m...
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      There is no reason to believe it would peter out without millions of deaths and no reason to believe we can't stay ahead of variants
      - swader999 5y ago
        Have we stayed ahead of the flu? If we vaccinate the vulnerable but ease off the rest of the population we'll be better off longer term with less harmful variants.
        kelnos 5y ago
        False equivalence; this is not the flu.
        swader999 5y ago
        No, I agree, but it's very similar though in terms of how easily it mutates and because of that impossible to snuff out with vaccines. We should only vaccinate the vulnerable like we do with the flu.
        michaelmrose 5y ago
        The old and immunocompromised get the least direct benefit from the vaccination because their immune systems are weak and a large portion of the actual decrease in mortality among these groups isn't directly from the vaccination but from having fewer vectors running around spreading disease. Furthermore Covid is believed to mutate substantially slower than the flu > Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and Alphainfluenzavirus are RNA viruses that cause coronavirus disease-19 and influenza, respectively. Both viruses infect the respiratory tract, show similar symptoms, and use surface proteins to infect the host. Influenza requires hemagglutinin and neuraminidase to infect, whereas SARS-CoV-2 uses protein S. Both viruses depend on a viral RNA polymerase to express their proteins, but only SARS-CoV-2 has a proofreading mechanism, which results in a low mutation rate compared to influenza. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33064680/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33064680/ On the topic of mutations letting it spread through those who aren't AS vulnerable would give it billions of new patients and trillions of new chances to mutate while killing millions of people whose lives could have been saved by a vaccine that is safer than many people's weekly commute to work.
  - grepfru_it 5y ago
    Just an FYI it’s possible to spread the virus even with the vaccine, so it is best to isolate and quarantine regardless of vaccination status
    - swader999 5y ago
      Yes but you are less likely to do this the less severe the infection is and you may not even notice it with the vaccination.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Most existing variants came about prior to vaccination and we can absolutely adapt vaccines to subsequent variants just like we do the flu. We absolutely can end mass deaths to covid. It's false that people without risk factors don't die of covid and monoclonal antibodies often don't work. You aren't safe if you aren't vaccinated or otherwise immune.
  - swader999 5y ago
    It's the variants that get selected that is the long term concern. Not how or from which cohort they emerge. With leaky vaccines applied to an entire population the tendency is for more severe variants to prevail. How many times does the flu vax miss the target? Flu has is also leaky but we don't get more than 40% coverage so not likely to see more harmful strains selected. And then we whore ourselves out to big pharma hoping they stay ahead of it all. See the devastating effects of this in the poultry industry: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-m... And the backing study: Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts." https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13...

by glogla 5y ago

swader999 5y ago

If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. Mass vaccinating the entire population for a respiratory virus that mutates so easily creates a whole host of other problems and a never ending pandemic of variants that may actually get more severe.

jowday 5y ago
>If you are previously infected or not in a vulnerable group its not selfish or stupid to avoid this vaccine. You can manage it with monoclonal antibodies if you do get a severe outcome. But there's a chance of you spreading the infection to someone who's vulnerable in the process of recovering from it. Or someone else who ends up spreading it to someone who's vulnerable. Could just be that you pass by someone in your apartment building on the way to pick up your antibodies. Or exhausting medical care supplies if you do end up needing treatment. I'm not equipped to tell whether your claim about mass vaccinations are true, but if that's correct are yearly flu shots also a bad idea?
- swader999 5y ago
  If you are naive and not vaccinated then when you get covid you'll likely notice it, isolate and not spread it (if it is particularly severe you may be bed ridden and unable to be social). If vaccinated and getting a less severe infection you may not need to isolate and likely be more social and prone to spread it. Yearly flu shots if they went out to the entire population would most likely create a similar problem. But with only 40% of the uptake and usually to the more vulnerable they haven't had this effect. Mass vaccinations to a virus like polio make perfect sense because this virus is not able to mutate and still successfully infect the host. You can confer long lasting immunity with vacinations on this. The spike protein on Sars can mutate many ways to Sunday and still break through the cell wall. So your constantly reformulating and boosting and trying to keep ahead of a changing target that if left to its own devices would just peter out due to it becoming less and less severe (too severe and it dies due to less transmission, less severe get more transmission and win and the virus becomes more benign over time). With a leaky vacccine you can be a happy chicken with a severe variant and be totally fine until your immunity wanes and the next designed booster is off the mark. See this: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-m...
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    There is no reason to believe it would peter out without millions of deaths and no reason to believe we can't stay ahead of variants
    - swader999 5y ago
      Have we stayed ahead of the flu? If we vaccinate the vulnerable but ease off the rest of the population we'll be better off longer term with less harmful variants.
      - kelnos 5y ago
        False equivalence; this is not the flu.
        swader999 5y ago
        No, I agree, but it's very similar though in terms of how easily it mutates and because of that impossible to snuff out with vaccines. We should only vaccinate the vulnerable like we do with the flu.
        michaelmrose 5y ago
        The old and immunocompromised get the least direct benefit from the vaccination because their immune systems are weak and a large portion of the actual decrease in mortality among these groups isn't directly from the vaccination but from having fewer vectors running around spreading disease. Furthermore Covid is believed to mutate substantially slower than the flu > Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and Alphainfluenzavirus are RNA viruses that cause coronavirus disease-19 and influenza, respectively. Both viruses infect the respiratory tract, show similar symptoms, and use surface proteins to infect the host. Influenza requires hemagglutinin and neuraminidase to infect, whereas SARS-CoV-2 uses protein S. Both viruses depend on a viral RNA polymerase to express their proteins, but only SARS-CoV-2 has a proofreading mechanism, which results in a low mutation rate compared to influenza. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33064680/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33064680/ On the topic of mutations letting it spread through those who aren't AS vulnerable would give it billions of new patients and trillions of new chances to mutate while killing millions of people whose lives could have been saved by a vaccine that is safer than many people's weekly commute to work.
- grepfru_it 5y ago
  Just an FYI it’s possible to spread the virus even with the vaccine, so it is best to isolate and quarantine regardless of vaccination status
  - swader999 5y ago
    Yes but you are less likely to do this the less severe the infection is and you may not even notice it with the vaccination.
michaelmrose 5y ago
Most existing variants came about prior to vaccination and we can absolutely adapt vaccines to subsequent variants just like we do the flu. We absolutely can end mass deaths to covid. It's false that people without risk factors don't die of covid and monoclonal antibodies often don't work. You aren't safe if you aren't vaccinated or otherwise immune.
- swader999 5y ago
  It's the variants that get selected that is the long term concern. Not how or from which cohort they emerge. With leaky vaccines applied to an entire population the tendency is for more severe variants to prevail. How many times does the flu vax miss the target? Flu has is also leaky but we don't get more than 40% coverage so not likely to see more harmful strains selected. And then we whore ourselves out to big pharma hoping they stay ahead of it all. See the devastating effects of this in the poultry industry: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-m... And the backing study: Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts." https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13...