3 ms·

I'm not carrying a bag with me all the time when I'm out just in case I buy something and if it's more than six items well, I don't know how to juggle. Someone

by dhughes 15y ago

I'm not carrying a bag with me all the time when I'm out just in case I buy something and if it's more than six items well, I don't know how to juggle. Someone needs to come up with a better plan other than an outright ban.

dalke 15y ago
They have these things called "paper bags." I bet that might be an alternative to plastic ones. Another option (mentioned in the article) is to not ban plastic bags but have a small fee for using one. This encourages people to bring their own bags but has a solution for when they don't, or when they end up buying more than they expected.
- dhughes 15y ago
  Paper bags seem to have disappeared in the 1960s, they've never been an option in my area just plastic, your own bag or juggle. I don't think a fee is a deterrent and it could be abused by stores more interested in a different kind of green. Whatever the solution some company will make money from it and put the blame on the customer.
  - dalke 15y ago
    I recall being asked "paper or plastic" in the early 1990s, and Trader Joe's is a modern chain which only has paper bags. San Francisco, as the article points out, banned plastic bags. It can't be that everyone brings their own bags to the store, so clearly the issue isn't that paper is impossible in your area, only that it's not available for you. In my experience, the fee is a deterrent. I live in a city where plastic bags cost at a grocery store about 15 cents and I can say that I would rather the store not make the profit when I could remember to bring my own or juggle. In any case, what's wrong with profit? Or if it's a problem, then would you feel better if there was legislation (as there is with some deposit fees) where the state keeps the excess money instead of the store? The main issue is that the cost of production and sales of plastic bags does not match the cost of the environmental impact. This is similar to beverage deposits. US states with beverage deposit laws have something like 50% fewer cans and bottles found as trash compared with those that don't. The two choices then are either eliminate the source of the problem, or include cleanup costs as part of the sale price.
    - dhughes 15y ago
      I figure it would be easier to make bags using plastic-like substances than paper bags, potato starch or genetically engineered bacteria oozing out some sort of bio-plastic. The cloth bags sold to people must require a large amount of energy to make and if they are not very durable may be no better than plastic in energy usage i.e. carbon output.
      - dalke 15y ago
        Consider the full lifecycle costs. Energy required for production is easily captured in the final price. Waste CO2 emissions less so, but let's assume that some sort of so-called "carbon tax" or "carbon cap" is in place. Paper, plastic, cloth, and so on have costs. Stores choose bags because of several factors: cost, ease of storage, ability to keep the bags in stock and available at the cashier's stand, and so on. But none of these include the post-use disposal costs. The argument is that plastic bags are more egregious than other waste: the bags are light enough to be blown long distances, they clog machinery designed to remove waste, they are more visible, and so on. In other words, the points you bring up, while true, are not the major reasons for plastic bag fees or bans.

by dhughes 15y ago

dalke 15y ago

They have these things called "paper bags." I bet that might be an alternative to plastic ones. Another option (mentioned in the article) is to not ban plastic bags but have a small fee for using one. This encourages people to bring their own bags but has a solution for when they don't, or when they end up buying more than they expected.

dhughes 15y ago
Paper bags seem to have disappeared in the 1960s, they've never been an option in my area just plastic, your own bag or juggle. I don't think a fee is a deterrent and it could be abused by stores more interested in a different kind of green. Whatever the solution some company will make money from it and put the blame on the customer.
- dalke 15y ago
  I recall being asked "paper or plastic" in the early 1990s, and Trader Joe's is a modern chain which only has paper bags. San Francisco, as the article points out, banned plastic bags. It can't be that everyone brings their own bags to the store, so clearly the issue isn't that paper is impossible in your area, only that it's not available for you. In my experience, the fee is a deterrent. I live in a city where plastic bags cost at a grocery store about 15 cents and I can say that I would rather the store not make the profit when I could remember to bring my own or juggle. In any case, what's wrong with profit? Or if it's a problem, then would you feel better if there was legislation (as there is with some deposit fees) where the state keeps the excess money instead of the store? The main issue is that the cost of production and sales of plastic bags does not match the cost of the environmental impact. This is similar to beverage deposits. US states with beverage deposit laws have something like 50% fewer cans and bottles found as trash compared with those that don't. The two choices then are either eliminate the source of the problem, or include cleanup costs as part of the sale price.
  - dhughes 15y ago
    I figure it would be easier to make bags using plastic-like substances than paper bags, potato starch or genetically engineered bacteria oozing out some sort of bio-plastic. The cloth bags sold to people must require a large amount of energy to make and if they are not very durable may be no better than plastic in energy usage i.e. carbon output.
    - dalke 15y ago
      Consider the full lifecycle costs. Energy required for production is easily captured in the final price. Waste CO2 emissions less so, but let's assume that some sort of so-called "carbon tax" or "carbon cap" is in place. Paper, plastic, cloth, and so on have costs. Stores choose bags because of several factors: cost, ease of storage, ability to keep the bags in stock and available at the cashier's stand, and so on. But none of these include the post-use disposal costs. The argument is that plastic bags are more egregious than other waste: the bags are light enough to be blown long distances, they clog machinery designed to remove waste, they are more visible, and so on. In other words, the points you bring up, while true, are not the major reasons for plastic bag fees or bans.