4 ms·

Can you go into more detail of why you think we need to be critical of designers? The GP makes no effort to justify their criticism of designers, perhaps you ca

by ysavir 5y ago

Can you go into more detail of why you think we need to be critical of designers? The GP makes no effort to justify their criticism of designers, perhaps you can provide some reasons for it, and thereby allow people to respond to actual arguments.

Zababa 5y ago
A good example that was discussed recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504573 The justification isn't "It helps users" or anything like that. It's "This is not a new idea either — pretty much everyone else is doing it, e.g. macOS, Windows, iOS, Android, elementary OS, KDE.". Reducing usability and breaking habits to follow trends is a bad thing.
- anchpop 5y ago
  This is a purely aesthetic change, it doesn't break any habits. In this case, it probably also improves usability, because there's less visual noise connected to those buttons, which lets you draw attention to buttons the user might not already know about using the same technique while staying within a certain 'visual noise budget'. Users expect that icons on the header bar are buttons (what else would they be?), so there's no need to call attention to that fact with an extra visual indicator. "Following trends" is a good thing because users appreciate when a piece of software looks like software they're already familiar with. It is maybe slightly annoying to people who already are used to the software, but every new user benefits from it.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > In this case, it probably also improves usability, because there's less visual noise connected to those buttons Yes, because there are no buttons anymore, just icons. Icons are not button. Icons are icons, buttons are buttons > which lets you draw attention to buttons the user might not already know about using the same technique while staying within a certain 'visual noise budget'. That "visual noice" is the zone where you can click on a button. I also don't believe that "visual noise budget" thing at all. Maybe it helps a bit first time users, but most software shouldn't optimize for first time users. I'll add that not everyone has a perfect eyesight or perfect mouse control. That new style is bound to be frustrating for a few people. > Users expect that icons on the header bar are buttons (what else would they be?), so there's no need to call attention to that fact with an extra visual indicator. Actually, having fallbacks and multiple ways to signal something is a great thing. For example, if you only use color to indicate something, colorblind users may have a hard time using it. Icons and tooltips when you hover over it is also a good way to achieve that. > "Following trends" is a good thing because users appreciate when a piece of software looks like software they're already familiar with. It is maybe slightly annoying to people who already are used to the software, but every new user benefits from it. So they're focusing on new users instead of people that actually use their software. I don't see how that is a good thing. If this was just one change, I may agree with you, but this is a sign of a larger trend of constantly changing interfaces for absolutely no benefit to the user.
  - jrm4 5y ago
    "This is a purely aesthetic change, it doesn't break any habits." This sort of wrong (or more precisely easily falsifiable) statement perfectly exemplifies why I have so little respect for "design" as it currently exists. You shouldn't just be able to say things like this that are nearly provably wrong on their face (e.g. I certain I can find 5, or 20, or more people who will definitely get slowed down by this) Add on top of this the sheer stupidity of not being able to keep the old way if you like, an increasingly common thing.
    - strokirk 5y ago
      Try to find these people then! I seriously doubt you will for a change like this. The UI changes are good for the reason GP states.
jrm4 5y ago
Not necessarily of "designers," but perhaps of "design." In my opinion, "design" does two things at the same time that are presently fundamentally incompatible without being honest about it -- namely "usability" and "fashion." It's absolutely possible to do both, but you can't pretend you're doing one when you're doing the other. Architecture comes to mind. They do this right, most often by putting usability "first." You can make your design as pretty as you want, but if the damn wheelchair ramp doesn't work as intended, the whole design is broken and if that means your pretty thing must die because of it, then kill it and start over.

by ysavir 5y ago

Zababa 5y ago

A good example that was discussed recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504573 The justification isn't "It helps users" or anything like that. It's "This is not a new idea either — pretty much everyone else is doing it, e.g. macOS, Windows, iOS, Android, elementary OS, KDE.". Reducing usability and breaking habits to follow trends is a bad thing.

anchpop 5y ago
This is a purely aesthetic change, it doesn't break any habits. In this case, it probably also improves usability, because there's less visual noise connected to those buttons, which lets you draw attention to buttons the user might not already know about using the same technique while staying within a certain 'visual noise budget'. Users expect that icons on the header bar are buttons (what else would they be?), so there's no need to call attention to that fact with an extra visual indicator. "Following trends" is a good thing because users appreciate when a piece of software looks like software they're already familiar with. It is maybe slightly annoying to people who already are used to the software, but every new user benefits from it.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > In this case, it probably also improves usability, because there's less visual noise connected to those buttons Yes, because there are no buttons anymore, just icons. Icons are not button. Icons are icons, buttons are buttons > which lets you draw attention to buttons the user might not already know about using the same technique while staying within a certain 'visual noise budget'. That "visual noice" is the zone where you can click on a button. I also don't believe that "visual noise budget" thing at all. Maybe it helps a bit first time users, but most software shouldn't optimize for first time users. I'll add that not everyone has a perfect eyesight or perfect mouse control. That new style is bound to be frustrating for a few people. > Users expect that icons on the header bar are buttons (what else would they be?), so there's no need to call attention to that fact with an extra visual indicator. Actually, having fallbacks and multiple ways to signal something is a great thing. For example, if you only use color to indicate something, colorblind users may have a hard time using it. Icons and tooltips when you hover over it is also a good way to achieve that. > "Following trends" is a good thing because users appreciate when a piece of software looks like software they're already familiar with. It is maybe slightly annoying to people who already are used to the software, but every new user benefits from it. So they're focusing on new users instead of people that actually use their software. I don't see how that is a good thing. If this was just one change, I may agree with you, but this is a sign of a larger trend of constantly changing interfaces for absolutely no benefit to the user.
- jrm4 5y ago
  "This is a purely aesthetic change, it doesn't break any habits." This sort of wrong (or more precisely easily falsifiable) statement perfectly exemplifies why I have so little respect for "design" as it currently exists. You shouldn't just be able to say things like this that are nearly provably wrong on their face (e.g. I certain I can find 5, or 20, or more people who will definitely get slowed down by this) Add on top of this the sheer stupidity of not being able to keep the old way if you like, an increasingly common thing.
  - strokirk 5y ago
    Try to find these people then! I seriously doubt you will for a change like this. The UI changes are good for the reason GP states.

jrm4 5y ago

Not necessarily of "designers," but perhaps of "design." In my opinion, "design" does two things at the same time that are presently fundamentally incompatible without being honest about it -- namely "usability" and "fashion." It's absolutely possible to do both, but you can't pretend you're doing one when you're doing the other. Architecture comes to mind. They do this right, most often by putting usability "first." You can make your design as pretty as you want, but if the damn wheelchair ramp doesn't work as intended, the whole design is broken and if that means your pretty thing must die because of it, then kill it and start over.