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It is telling that the euphemism “undocumented immigrant” is considered less polar than the factually descriptive “illegal immigrant”. “Undocumented” suggests a

It is telling that the euphemism “undocumented immigrant” is considered less polar than the factually descriptive “illegal immigrant”. “Undocumented” suggests ambiguous legality, which is plainly false in the vast majority of cases to which the phrase refers. It is also interesting that there is no neutral term for this topic. Actually, now I’m using euphemisms. It’s not interesting, it’s disheartening.

hunterb123 5y ago
illegal alien is the neutral and legal term. it's been politicized like most words that side disagrees with. it all turns into a semantics and racial game to distract from the actual issues.
drooby 5y ago
My understanding.. it is more grammatically correct to say that: A person can be undocumented. However, a person cannot be illegal - they can only commit illegal acts. I.e illegal immigration. Language is flexible though and I understand what people mean with the term. I believe those on the left take issue with calling people illegal, out of fear of promoting xenophobia.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  no one is calling anyone "illegal". they are calling them an illegal alien, it's a legal term in our immigration laws referring to a non resident who is staying here illegally, not by legal means. getting into the semantics is ridiculous in this situation. 1/3 girls let over that border are raped according to doctors without borders. every person walking over is part of the cartels human trafficking ring, but yeah let's worry about what we called it in our legal books. xenophobia is not the moral issue here, it's fucking human trafficking.
  - drooby 5y ago
    I’m sorry I triggered you. People actually do care about the meaning behind words. That’s why we are talking about it. Words shape understanding, understanding shapes actions, and actions have consequences. Perhaps if we used more compassionate language to refer to these people it would support our efforts to prevent this violence you talk about. Also, as of this year the Biden administration has asked ICE, CBP to stop using the term “illegal alien”.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      there's a time and place to care about words, mind you these are legal words baked into our immigration laws. noone will believe you care if you squabble over what to call someone while letting them be trafficked. illegal alien is not offensive, stop trying to make a false debate so you don't have to discuss the real issue, the cartels. Biden can ask ICE and CBP to use whatever words he wants, like that does something, they're just following the laws he helped write. maybe he should have updated the immigration laws in his half a century as a senator.
      - drooby 5y ago
        Dude… do you know where we are? We are in a comment thread discussing the usage of words in media bias… is this not the time and place? This isn’t a thread about the cartels. Talk about false debate.
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Dude... follow the chain. This was about whether or not illegal immigration has a neutral term, it does, illegal alien, the legal term. I did dive into the issue itself, but it doesn't make it a false debate, unlike the semantics debate. I was pointing out how bias in the media in this topic always turns to a word debate not a debate on the issue. Keep in mind YOU brought up xenophobia and not the cartels. You continued the semantics debate, but not the root issue.
        drooby 5y ago
        Well I disagree. I don’t think there is any such thing as a neutral term in politics. No one has an objective understanding of some combination of words. Just because the term does not illicit emotions in you, does not mean it doesn’t in other people. Like I said, Biden has already recommended the term “illegal alien” be changed - thus highlighting its politicization. And on your second point I take issue with the premise. Like I said earlier, I think our understanding of words have consequences, debating their meaning is debating the issue. However, is it the most fruitful and meaningful debate? Perhaps not.. but again, we are in a comment section about word usage in media bias - so that’s why I’m focusing on it.
  - akiselev 5y ago
    > every person walking over is part of the cartels human trafficking ring > xenophobia is not the moral issue here
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      In other words, the perilous journey and initial exploitation by the cartels are the issue, not some semantics debate about the legal term "illegal aliens" and whether people invoke it because some alleged "xenophobia". Unless you were selectively quoting parts of my sentences for another reason. You didn't exactly make a rebuttal.
- xibalba 5y ago
  In a descendant comment to this, you wrote: > if we used more compassionate language to refer to these people Which implies a greater interest in the politics of the language vs. semantic precision/grammatical precision. The "illegal" in the phrase "illegal immigrant" refers to their illegal immigration, not to the legality of their person-hood, as your comment would imply. "Undocumented" is an intentional dodge of the legality of the immigration action undertaken by the person (aka their immigration status). The more factual phrase has been made controversial by partisans. And btw, cards on the table, I support an expanded, rational immigration policy that recognizes the critically important role immigrants play in the U.S. economy and, more generally, society. And one that encourages legality and punishes illegality.
allemagne 5y ago
You seem to imply that "undocumented immigrant" isn't actually less factually descriptive or a euphemism at all, but a term that refers to a slightly broader category than "illegal immigrant." I don't know if that's a correct categorization, but given that framing the relevant differences are not at all about one "descriptive" term and one "euphemistic" one.
908B64B197 5y ago
One of these terms can get you votes from naturalized citizens of certain communities. The other one won't.
IAmEveryone 5y ago
“Illegal” is plainly wrong in the vast majority of cases you’re probably thinking of. At least for most people who crossed the US?Mexican border in the last two years, they have pending applications for asylum since the those courts are completely flooded. So “asylum seekers” or “refugee” would be better, since I agree that they are not undocumented, either.

hunterb123 5y ago

illegal alien is the neutral and legal term. it's been politicized like most words that side disagrees with. it all turns into a semantics and racial game to distract from the actual issues.

drooby 5y ago

My understanding.. it is more grammatically correct to say that: A person can be undocumented. However, a person cannot be illegal - they can only commit illegal acts. I.e illegal immigration. Language is flexible though and I understand what people mean with the term. I believe those on the left take issue with calling people illegal, out of fear of promoting xenophobia.

hunterb123 5y ago
no one is calling anyone "illegal". they are calling them an illegal alien, it's a legal term in our immigration laws referring to a non resident who is staying here illegally, not by legal means. getting into the semantics is ridiculous in this situation. 1/3 girls let over that border are raped according to doctors without borders. every person walking over is part of the cartels human trafficking ring, but yeah let's worry about what we called it in our legal books. xenophobia is not the moral issue here, it's fucking human trafficking.
- drooby 5y ago
  I’m sorry I triggered you. People actually do care about the meaning behind words. That’s why we are talking about it. Words shape understanding, understanding shapes actions, and actions have consequences. Perhaps if we used more compassionate language to refer to these people it would support our efforts to prevent this violence you talk about. Also, as of this year the Biden administration has asked ICE, CBP to stop using the term “illegal alien”.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    there's a time and place to care about words, mind you these are legal words baked into our immigration laws. noone will believe you care if you squabble over what to call someone while letting them be trafficked. illegal alien is not offensive, stop trying to make a false debate so you don't have to discuss the real issue, the cartels. Biden can ask ICE and CBP to use whatever words he wants, like that does something, they're just following the laws he helped write. maybe he should have updated the immigration laws in his half a century as a senator.
    - drooby 5y ago
      Dude… do you know where we are? We are in a comment thread discussing the usage of words in media bias… is this not the time and place? This isn’t a thread about the cartels. Talk about false debate.
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        Dude... follow the chain. This was about whether or not illegal immigration has a neutral term, it does, illegal alien, the legal term. I did dive into the issue itself, but it doesn't make it a false debate, unlike the semantics debate. I was pointing out how bias in the media in this topic always turns to a word debate not a debate on the issue. Keep in mind YOU brought up xenophobia and not the cartels. You continued the semantics debate, but not the root issue.
        drooby 5y ago
        Well I disagree. I don’t think there is any such thing as a neutral term in politics. No one has an objective understanding of some combination of words. Just because the term does not illicit emotions in you, does not mean it doesn’t in other people. Like I said, Biden has already recommended the term “illegal alien” be changed - thus highlighting its politicization. And on your second point I take issue with the premise. Like I said earlier, I think our understanding of words have consequences, debating their meaning is debating the issue. However, is it the most fruitful and meaningful debate? Perhaps not.. but again, we are in a comment section about word usage in media bias - so that’s why I’m focusing on it.
- akiselev 5y ago
  > every person walking over is part of the cartels human trafficking ring > xenophobia is not the moral issue here
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    In other words, the perilous journey and initial exploitation by the cartels are the issue, not some semantics debate about the legal term "illegal aliens" and whether people invoke it because some alleged "xenophobia". Unless you were selectively quoting parts of my sentences for another reason. You didn't exactly make a rebuttal.
xibalba 5y ago
In a descendant comment to this, you wrote: > if we used more compassionate language to refer to these people Which implies a greater interest in the politics of the language vs. semantic precision/grammatical precision. The "illegal" in the phrase "illegal immigrant" refers to their illegal immigration, not to the legality of their person-hood, as your comment would imply. "Undocumented" is an intentional dodge of the legality of the immigration action undertaken by the person (aka their immigration status). The more factual phrase has been made controversial by partisans. And btw, cards on the table, I support an expanded, rational immigration policy that recognizes the critically important role immigrants play in the U.S. economy and, more generally, society. And one that encourages legality and punishes illegality.

allemagne 5y ago

You seem to imply that "undocumented immigrant" isn't actually less factually descriptive or a euphemism at all, but a term that refers to a slightly broader category than "illegal immigrant." I don't know if that's a correct categorization, but given that framing the relevant differences are not at all about one "descriptive" term and one "euphemistic" one.

908B64B197 5y ago

One of these terms can get you votes from naturalized citizens of certain communities. The other one won't.

IAmEveryone 5y ago

“Illegal” is plainly wrong in the vast majority of cases you’re probably thinking of. At least for most people who crossed the US?Mexican border in the last two years, they have pending applications for asylum since the those courts are completely flooded. So “asylum seekers” or “refugee” would be better, since I agree that they are not undocumented, either.