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It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Over 100 million Americans have already caught and recovered from Covid. I imagine many in that grou

by nafix 5y ago

It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Over 100 million Americans have already caught and recovered from Covid. I imagine many in that group don't see any value in getting the vaccine (rightfully so).

devwastaken 5y ago
Most of those people don't actually know they had COVID. They make up stories that "they've already had it". Remember that vaccinated still get COVID, those numbers include them.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  What evidence do you have for your claim? An anecdote or two from your own life? How is that any more scientific than what you claim to be decrying? In the U.S. at least, there is a mass testing regime that many must submit to for work, school, etc. Are you suggesting those who have tested positive in these situations are "making up stories"?
  - jsight 5y ago
    Anecdotally, there are people who say it only based upon symptoms. I'd even argue that they are probably right, but its fair to say that they have any way of validating or proving that knowledge.
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      I agree that if someone is doing this, they do not have definitive proof. The comment I was responding to claimed "most" people are making claims without proof. Despite the hundreds of millions (billions?) of covid tests that have been administered throughout the pandemic in the U.S.
  - iszomer 5y ago
    There were a few stories that called into question the effectiveness of these tests ranging from PCR, antibody, antigen, etc.
  - devwastaken 5y ago
    Overwhelmingly people did not have to test for COVID, and never did. They had a few "symptoms" and claimed they got COVID and it "was no big deal". When in reality they have no proof of it. Humans overwhelmingly make up stories so reinforce their opinions. And no, most work did not require testing, even government work. Even federal government work.
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      "Humans overwhelmingly make up stories so reinforce their opinions." At least we can agree on that. You're doing it right now. Funny that you put "a few symptoms" in scare quotes, given that loss of taste and smell is highly indicative of covid and not any other widely circulating illness.
paulcole 5y ago
There is some value in fitting in with society and showing those who are skeptical that there's nothing to be afraid of with a vaccine. And with more mandates going into place it's easier to just get vaccinated.
- arcbyte 5y ago
  I've said from the beginning of this year that I'll get vaccinated as soon as the government gets out of it. At this point, the mandates are specifically why I refuse to get vaccinated. I caught covid in August so I'm immune for the next year at least. So there's no reason for me to get vaccinated and every reason not to.
  - rspeele 5y ago
    > I've said from the beginning of this year that I'll get vaccinated as soon as the government gets out of it. At this point, the mandates are specifically why I refuse to get vaccinated. Do you find any irony in your decision being controlled by the government's policy?
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      I agree with arcbyte, and I got my second shot in March. The amount of government interference as it relates to COVID and vaccines is complete bullshit. I hope we look back on this in 20 years and feel a deep sense of embarrassment for how COVID and the vaccine has been managed and used to emotionally manipulate and divide people. When 9/11 happened it united the country. COVID should have done the same thing, but it has been used as a political tool instead, bringing out the worst in people. It makes me quite depressed when I think about it for too long.
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        > When 9/11 happened it united the country. COVID should have done the same thing, but it has been used as a political tool instead, bringing out the worst in people. It makes me quite depressed when I think about it for too long. I've felt this way too. People have made this so incredibly, incredibly divisive. I'm not sure what blend of fear and tribalism is driving this either. When you talk to some people about covid, what comes out of their mouth is almost word salad--they are so incredibly fearful and panicked that almost none of what they say makes sense. The idea that society should completely alter everything for this one specific illness (aka "new normal") is pretty absurd, yet people will stop just short of spitting on your face when you express any skepticism at all. Societies reaction to this is all just so freaking bizarre. None of what we are doing adds up or makes much sense when you really start asking questions.
mr_overalls 5y ago
Choosing to risk catching a disease with a 1-2% case fatality rate, while refusing an overwhelmingly safe and effective vaccine is the definition of idiocy.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  IFR is a better metric than CFR: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-021-11127-7 https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s... The overall IFR is misleading, given how age-stratified the risk is: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    I absolutely adore when publicly available data sourced from government agencies gets downvoted. Since March of 2020 any kind of statement suggesting covid isn’t as bad as some make it out to be is met with fierce vitriol. The number of times I’ve been called “dangerous” for posting well sourced data that clearly shows the IFR of covid is not 1-2%… It’s as if people believe that any good news will result in others “not taking this serious”. They must feel that everybody needs to be scared stiff of this thing all the time… the result is the average person thinks if they catch covid they have a 10% chance of dying, which for most age groups is like 1000x off[0]. It’s super evil, really. If people were better informed about the risk profiles of covid, how many would have sacrificed a year and a half of their short life? Wouldn’t that imply that forcing this “new normal” crap by scaring the daylights out of people is a tad misguided and perhaps very unethical and immoral? If the only way you can get people to comply with your draconian interventions is lying to society about the risks of covid… well that is pretty fucked up. Worse, by the way, is peoples risk assessment for covid is so completely wrong it makes debating public policy impossible. If the average adult thinks they have a 10% of dying if they got covid, of course they will want to mask little kids at school, of course they’ll cheer vaccine passports, of course they’ll rat each other out for sitting on a park bench. If they knew kids were at almost zero risk of covid, and their age bracket had minimal risks, would they have agreed to any of that? [0] a fascinating data set: https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/ https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/
tharne 5y ago
> It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Agreed. The correct term for them is "immoral". The only world in which it makes sense to forgo the vaccine is one in which your life is only one that matters. So a healthy unvaccinated person is making a perfectly rational decision, just a morally bankrupt one.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  How is it morally bankrupt to care about yourself more than people you don't know?
  - random314 5y ago
    How does getting a vaccine affect a young healthy person negatively? It is immoral for the same reason as refusing to help others survive at zero cost to you.
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      > How does getting a vaccine affect a young healthy person negatively? Isn't that a reason people don't want the shot? Because they're not sure of the answer to that question. I got my 2 shots. Had to drive 1.5 hours each way both times, find someone to watch my kids and burn up 2 Saturdays that I could have spent doing something I wanted to do that wasn't getting a shot. To claim there is zero cost is insincere at best.
      - random314 5y ago
        I am not sure which country you are in because I can walk into pharmacies and grocery stores and get a shot while shopping. Vaccine appointments were booked out early in the year in the United states. You could have just waited. The US government/pharma companies cant produce 600 million doses in a couple of weeks. For me both shots were zero cost, as for every other person I know.
        5y ago
crackercrews 5y ago
It would be very useful to know what percent of the unvaccinated population are not getting vaccinated because they already had COVID. What are their demographics, compared to the larger demographics of the unvaccinated population? And is it worth spending any effort (or White House budget paying TikTok influencers) trying to convince them to get a vaccine for an illness they have already had?
tastyfreeze 5y ago
Anecdote to support your statement: A close friend that tested positive for COVID last year works at a hospital. They saw no value in getting vaccinated since they had already been infected and recovered. They were given an ultimatum last month of "get vaccinated or find a new job". Reason has left the building.
- random314 5y ago
  How it would have hurt to get a vaccine?
  - pwm 5y ago
    Well for one it could go to desperate people in 3rd world countries? If you already provably had covid letting your now useless shot go to the ones in need is arguably the moral choice?
    - supercheetah 5y ago
      The doses in the countries they're at now aren't likely to go to a different country, and are more likely to expire before they could be shipped elsewhere, so people in those countries may as well get them. For other places, the problem is manufacturing and distribution, and lifting patent restrictions would help too.
  - subsaharancoder 5y ago
    >How it would have hurt to get a vaccine? Notice how easy it is to conveniently jettison the science + data and just demand that people "tow the line or else.."
gorwell 5y ago
It's not only ignorant of the science, as you point out regarding prior immunity, but highly ignorant of history and social dynamics. Creating an underclass that is considered diseased and "dangerous to us" ends badly, to say the least. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization
- theandrewbailey 5y ago
  In addition, minorities have reason to distrust the medical establishment.[0] For all the noise made about "voter ID is racist", almost no one has said that "vaccine passports are racist". Do we really want to create another two tiered system where minorities are the outgroup again? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

by nafix 5y ago

devwastaken 5y ago

Most of those people don't actually know they had COVID. They make up stories that "they've already had it". Remember that vaccinated still get COVID, those numbers include them.

chitowneats 5y ago
What evidence do you have for your claim? An anecdote or two from your own life? How is that any more scientific than what you claim to be decrying? In the U.S. at least, there is a mass testing regime that many must submit to for work, school, etc. Are you suggesting those who have tested positive in these situations are "making up stories"?
- jsight 5y ago
  Anecdotally, there are people who say it only based upon symptoms. I'd even argue that they are probably right, but its fair to say that they have any way of validating or proving that knowledge.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    I agree that if someone is doing this, they do not have definitive proof. The comment I was responding to claimed "most" people are making claims without proof. Despite the hundreds of millions (billions?) of covid tests that have been administered throughout the pandemic in the U.S.
- iszomer 5y ago
  There were a few stories that called into question the effectiveness of these tests ranging from PCR, antibody, antigen, etc.
- devwastaken 5y ago
  Overwhelmingly people did not have to test for COVID, and never did. They had a few "symptoms" and claimed they got COVID and it "was no big deal". When in reality they have no proof of it. Humans overwhelmingly make up stories so reinforce their opinions. And no, most work did not require testing, even government work. Even federal government work.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    "Humans overwhelmingly make up stories so reinforce their opinions." At least we can agree on that. You're doing it right now. Funny that you put "a few symptoms" in scare quotes, given that loss of taste and smell is highly indicative of covid and not any other widely circulating illness.

paulcole 5y ago

There is some value in fitting in with society and showing those who are skeptical that there's nothing to be afraid of with a vaccine. And with more mandates going into place it's easier to just get vaccinated.

arcbyte 5y ago
I've said from the beginning of this year that I'll get vaccinated as soon as the government gets out of it. At this point, the mandates are specifically why I refuse to get vaccinated. I caught covid in August so I'm immune for the next year at least. So there's no reason for me to get vaccinated and every reason not to.
- rspeele 5y ago
  > I've said from the beginning of this year that I'll get vaccinated as soon as the government gets out of it. At this point, the mandates are specifically why I refuse to get vaccinated. Do you find any irony in your decision being controlled by the government's policy?
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    I agree with arcbyte, and I got my second shot in March. The amount of government interference as it relates to COVID and vaccines is complete bullshit. I hope we look back on this in 20 years and feel a deep sense of embarrassment for how COVID and the vaccine has been managed and used to emotionally manipulate and divide people. When 9/11 happened it united the country. COVID should have done the same thing, but it has been used as a political tool instead, bringing out the worst in people. It makes me quite depressed when I think about it for too long.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      > When 9/11 happened it united the country. COVID should have done the same thing, but it has been used as a political tool instead, bringing out the worst in people. It makes me quite depressed when I think about it for too long. I've felt this way too. People have made this so incredibly, incredibly divisive. I'm not sure what blend of fear and tribalism is driving this either. When you talk to some people about covid, what comes out of their mouth is almost word salad--they are so incredibly fearful and panicked that almost none of what they say makes sense. The idea that society should completely alter everything for this one specific illness (aka "new normal") is pretty absurd, yet people will stop just short of spitting on your face when you express any skepticism at all. Societies reaction to this is all just so freaking bizarre. None of what we are doing adds up or makes much sense when you really start asking questions.

mr_overalls 5y ago

Choosing to risk catching a disease with a 1-2% case fatality rate, while refusing an overwhelmingly safe and effective vaccine is the definition of idiocy.

chitowneats 5y ago
IFR is a better metric than CFR: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-021-11127-7 https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s... The overall IFR is misleading, given how age-stratified the risk is: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  I absolutely adore when publicly available data sourced from government agencies gets downvoted. Since March of 2020 any kind of statement suggesting covid isn’t as bad as some make it out to be is met with fierce vitriol. The number of times I’ve been called “dangerous” for posting well sourced data that clearly shows the IFR of covid is not 1-2%… It’s as if people believe that any good news will result in others “not taking this serious”. They must feel that everybody needs to be scared stiff of this thing all the time… the result is the average person thinks if they catch covid they have a 10% chance of dying, which for most age groups is like 1000x off[0]. It’s super evil, really. If people were better informed about the risk profiles of covid, how many would have sacrificed a year and a half of their short life? Wouldn’t that imply that forcing this “new normal” crap by scaring the daylights out of people is a tad misguided and perhaps very unethical and immoral? If the only way you can get people to comply with your draconian interventions is lying to society about the risks of covid… well that is pretty fucked up. Worse, by the way, is peoples risk assessment for covid is so completely wrong it makes debating public policy impossible. If the average adult thinks they have a 10% of dying if they got covid, of course they will want to mask little kids at school, of course they’ll cheer vaccine passports, of course they’ll rat each other out for sitting on a park bench. If they knew kids were at almost zero risk of covid, and their age bracket had minimal risks, would they have agreed to any of that? [0] a fascinating data set: https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/ https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/

tharne 5y ago

> It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Agreed. The correct term for them is "immoral". The only world in which it makes sense to forgo the vaccine is one in which your life is only one that matters. So a healthy unvaccinated person is making a perfectly rational decision, just a morally bankrupt one.

betwixthewires 5y ago
How is it morally bankrupt to care about yourself more than people you don't know?
- random314 5y ago
  How does getting a vaccine affect a young healthy person negatively? It is immoral for the same reason as refusing to help others survive at zero cost to you.
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    > How does getting a vaccine affect a young healthy person negatively? Isn't that a reason people don't want the shot? Because they're not sure of the answer to that question. I got my 2 shots. Had to drive 1.5 hours each way both times, find someone to watch my kids and burn up 2 Saturdays that I could have spent doing something I wanted to do that wasn't getting a shot. To claim there is zero cost is insincere at best.
    - random314 5y ago
      I am not sure which country you are in because I can walk into pharmacies and grocery stores and get a shot while shopping. Vaccine appointments were booked out early in the year in the United states. You could have just waited. The US government/pharma companies cant produce 600 million doses in a couple of weeks. For me both shots were zero cost, as for every other person I know.
      - 5y ago

crackercrews 5y ago

It would be very useful to know what percent of the unvaccinated population are not getting vaccinated because they already had COVID. What are their demographics, compared to the larger demographics of the unvaccinated population? And is it worth spending any effort (or White House budget paying TikTok influencers) trying to convince them to get a vaccine for an illness they have already had?

tastyfreeze 5y ago

Anecdote to support your statement: A close friend that tested positive for COVID last year works at a hospital. They saw no value in getting vaccinated since they had already been infected and recovered. They were given an ultimatum last month of "get vaccinated or find a new job". Reason has left the building.

random314 5y ago
How it would have hurt to get a vaccine?
- pwm 5y ago
  Well for one it could go to desperate people in 3rd world countries? If you already provably had covid letting your now useless shot go to the ones in need is arguably the moral choice?
  - supercheetah 5y ago
    The doses in the countries they're at now aren't likely to go to a different country, and are more likely to expire before they could be shipped elsewhere, so people in those countries may as well get them. For other places, the problem is manufacturing and distribution, and lifting patent restrictions would help too.
- subsaharancoder 5y ago
  >How it would have hurt to get a vaccine? Notice how easy it is to conveniently jettison the science + data and just demand that people "tow the line or else.."

gorwell 5y ago

It's not only ignorant of the science, as you point out regarding prior immunity, but highly ignorant of history and social dynamics. Creating an underclass that is considered diseased and "dangerous to us" ends badly, to say the least. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization

theandrewbailey 5y ago
In addition, minorities have reason to distrust the medical establishment.[0] For all the noise made about "voter ID is racist", almost no one has said that "vaccine passports are racist". Do we really want to create another two tiered system where minorities are the outgroup again? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study