6 ms·

It feels like more and more people whom I would consider very partisan (either side) simply act out of spite nowadays. Whatever the other side wants, well, we'r

It feels like more and more people whom I would consider very partisan (either side) simply act out of spite nowadays. Whatever the other side wants, well, we're just going to unconditionally fight it. You saw this accelerate after Trump won with "Resist", an ethos that literally means to defy regardless of circumstances. And now you see the right's version of "Resist" by avoiding vaccinations. Why? Because screw them, that's why. This is just more the feeling I get about society. It's very frustrating. I also think places like the CDC made enormous tactical errors by doing things like celebrating certain political protests, or changing language from "mothers" to "birthing people", etc. They tried to score cheap political points while sowing seeds of total distrust in the process. Just a massive mistake, all downside no upside.

Kevin_S 5y ago
It's pretty insane to read "both sides" at this point. The idea that democrats and republicans are equal in this way is absurd.
- scottLobster 5y ago
  It isn't "both sides" to point out failures in leadership. Say what you will about Republicans but their core messaging has been remarkably consistent and effective. The Democrats won a hard-fought chance to turn things around from a pandemic-leadership perspective, and then those leaders get caught up in ineffective lies (Fauci saying masks were likely ineffective to try and save supplies, which was a fool's errand) and unrelated culture wars. Are they better than the Trump administration? Absolutely. Have they made some egregious and completely avoidable errors? Also yes.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
scottLobster 5y ago
Yeah, and it didn't help when during the BLM protests, when social distancing was being trumpeted in all contexts, a number of doctors (can't remember if the CDC endorsed it or not) came out and said the massive crowds at the protests were acceptable because "race issues are health issues too" or something to that effect. That's obviously hypocritical to anyone with half a brain. If there's a kernel of truth to the right's message it's that there is an elite class in DC that is woefully out of touch and seemingly incapable of actual leadership. They just spout what they think, however asinine or poorly phrased, and we're supposed to listen because they're certified "experts". I know enough people in government agencies personally/have the scientific education necessary to filter the signal from the noise, but I can understand someone who doesn't have those advantages just refusing to trust anything they say. They sound like arrogant nerds, and a lot of them actually are. Someone needs to remind anyone who releases a public statement that they are first and foremost in the business of public persuasion, not absolute truth telling down to the smallest detail for its own sake. That means clear, consistent messaging that a high school dropout who failed 9th grade Biology can understand. Broad strokes. Simple actions. Leave the nuance in the footnotes for the professionals who can handle it. For example, the messaging should have been some variety of "wear a mask as often as you can until we get a vaccine, then you can take off the mask if you get vaccinated" combined with support of mandates to enforce that path. Are there problems with that? Sure, but it gives people a simple path to follow, a light at the end of the tunnel, would have a positive impact on average, and doesn't get bogged down in ultimately irrelevant details about the tactical effectiveness of masks/vaccines and provides an incentive to get the vaccine. And consistency alone can be powerful messaging if there's even a little truth behind it. Much as I wish we were, we are not a nation of scientists and cannot be addressed as such. And yeah I'm sure there are a million "it's different behind the curtain" excuses for why things were done the way they were. Same way when things are designed by committee at a large company everyone involved is conveniently not individually responsible when things go wrong. I'm not sure what the precise solution is, I'm certainly not in a position to influence anything related to Fauci's/The CDC's messaging, but someone has to start taking actual personal responsibility for the outcomes, and be in a position to relieve those who have proven ineffective. Granted it may already be too late for that, people are entrenched hard.
- subsaharancoder 5y ago
  >Yeah, and it didn't help when during the BLM protests, when social distancing was being trumpeted in all contexts, a number of doctors (can't remember if the CDC endorsed it or not) came out and said the massive crowds at the protests were acceptable because "race issues are health issues too" or something to that effect. That's obviously hypocritical to anyone with half a brain Here's the letter https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1b7K1A/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1... This quote is mind boggling "Even so, we continue to support demonstrators who are tackling the paramount public health problem of pervasive racism."
Akronymus 5y ago
From what I remember, it started with saying you'd be stupid to take "the trump vaccine". (In less pleasant language) To me, it seems to have been politicized by the left first. This in combination with the RAPID flip of the coverage/opinion from the left after Biden took the presidency seems like a pretty good explanation for a good part of the rights defiance.
- evgen 5y ago
  NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' No one. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting areas) so maybe this wasn't so bad after all and we can just wait for 'herd immunity' was the claim of the Trump crowd. You have a serious problem with reality and the truth if you think that people on the left waited until after the election to start pushing for a vaccine and for trying to take active steps to contain and control Covid spread.
  - iszomer 5y ago
    Outside of social media, iirc, there was footage of certain political figures such as then Gov. Cuomo publicly rejecting the vaccine deployment in his state, during Trump's administration. Since people relied on social media more often than cable TV, I suppose there were lots of amplified "lost in translation" moments. A simple keyword search of "Trump vaccine" on reddit yields massive cognitive dissonance and a sociopath would conflate their bias from all the subreddits the keywords are found.
  - Akronymus 5y ago
    >NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' While most didn't say trump vaccine directly, they alluded to trump being the main push behind it. >. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. It apparently was racist to close the border for china. MANY people called trumps response overblown, until suddenly it was way too little. >Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. "The right" was much faster to react than the left. That includes initial response and calling for opening back up. >Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting areas) so maybe this wasn't so bad after all and we can just wait for 'herd immunity' was the claim of the Trump crowd. I have a hard time finding any source on that. Could you link me any? >You have a serious problem with reality and the truth if you think that people on the left waited until after the election to start pushing for a vaccine and for trying to take active steps to contain and control Covid spread. I am not saying that EVERYONE on the left was like that, just that I first started seeing the politicization come from the left. Quite an important difference. These are examples that took me just a few minutes to find again with people who flipped their opinion quite hard, along with that, trump has been pro vaccine for a long time. https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/1297887665480593409 https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/129788766548059340... https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/1389424632491495431 https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/138942463249149543... https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/1302656968377548800 https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/13026569683775488... https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/1421188900177866753 https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/14211889001778667... https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1334201006108839936 https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1334201006108839936 https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1421641394645577732 https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1421641394645577732 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1304144185419800579 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1304144185419800579 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1386686118691844100 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1386686118691844100 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1298300531614658561 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1298300531614658561 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1414910318782861323 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1414910318782861323 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1306762734076342273 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1306762734076342273 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1429803419108249606 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1429803419108249606
jimbob45 5y ago
>And now you see the right's version of "Resist" by avoiding vaccinations "I love our people, so I want our people to take the vaccines." - Trump "As a boy, I fought polio. Today, America’s been polio-free for 40 years — thanks to vaccinations. We’ll beat Covid-19 with vaccines, too. Protect yourself and your family. Get vaccinated." - McConnell "Democrats and the media scoffed when @realDonaldTrump said we’d have a safe and effective vaccine this year, but he kept his promise!" - Kevin McCarthy, House minority leader All of Republican leadership is urging people to get the vaccine. Anti-vaxxers think they're on the side of Republicans but, come midterms in 14 months, they're going to figure out that they're not on anyone's side. Edit: I would love to hear from anyone old enough to remember what happened during a time in history when a large coalition of people thought they had representation in one party or the other but actually had no representation in either party. What happened during the subsequent election?
BitwiseFool 5y ago
The one that made me the most upset was how large gatherings were bad, unless one was protesting about racial injustice. In which case, don't worry, those protestors had masks on. Well, if merely having a mask on in a thousands large march is okay, why not just allow all sized gatherings provided one is wearing a face covering?
- delecti 5y ago
  An outdoor, fully-masked gathering is meaningfully different, and the people pushing against COVID restrictions were also pushing back against mask guidance. In reality, indoor masked gatherings were fairly safe, but the practical distinction was between outdoor masked or indoor unmasked.

Kevin_S 5y ago

It's pretty insane to read "both sides" at this point. The idea that democrats and republicans are equal in this way is absurd.

scottLobster 5y ago
It isn't "both sides" to point out failures in leadership. Say what you will about Republicans but their core messaging has been remarkably consistent and effective. The Democrats won a hard-fought chance to turn things around from a pandemic-leadership perspective, and then those leaders get caught up in ineffective lies (Fauci saying masks were likely ineffective to try and save supplies, which was a fool's errand) and unrelated culture wars. Are they better than the Trump administration? Absolutely. Have they made some egregious and completely avoidable errors? Also yes.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

scottLobster 5y ago

Yeah, and it didn't help when during the BLM protests, when social distancing was being trumpeted in all contexts, a number of doctors (can't remember if the CDC endorsed it or not) came out and said the massive crowds at the protests were acceptable because "race issues are health issues too" or something to that effect. That's obviously hypocritical to anyone with half a brain. If there's a kernel of truth to the right's message it's that there is an elite class in DC that is woefully out of touch and seemingly incapable of actual leadership. They just spout what they think, however asinine or poorly phrased, and we're supposed to listen because they're certified "experts". I know enough people in government agencies personally/have the scientific education necessary to filter the signal from the noise, but I can understand someone who doesn't have those advantages just refusing to trust anything they say. They sound like arrogant nerds, and a lot of them actually are. Someone needs to remind anyone who releases a public statement that they are first and foremost in the business of public persuasion, not absolute truth telling down to the smallest detail for its own sake. That means clear, consistent messaging that a high school dropout who failed 9th grade Biology can understand. Broad strokes. Simple actions. Leave the nuance in the footnotes for the professionals who can handle it. For example, the messaging should have been some variety of "wear a mask as often as you can until we get a vaccine, then you can take off the mask if you get vaccinated" combined with support of mandates to enforce that path. Are there problems with that? Sure, but it gives people a simple path to follow, a light at the end of the tunnel, would have a positive impact on average, and doesn't get bogged down in ultimately irrelevant details about the tactical effectiveness of masks/vaccines and provides an incentive to get the vaccine. And consistency alone can be powerful messaging if there's even a little truth behind it. Much as I wish we were, we are not a nation of scientists and cannot be addressed as such. And yeah I'm sure there are a million "it's different behind the curtain" excuses for why things were done the way they were. Same way when things are designed by committee at a large company everyone involved is conveniently not individually responsible when things go wrong. I'm not sure what the precise solution is, I'm certainly not in a position to influence anything related to Fauci's/The CDC's messaging, but someone has to start taking actual personal responsibility for the outcomes, and be in a position to relieve those who have proven ineffective. Granted it may already be too late for that, people are entrenched hard.

subsaharancoder 5y ago
>Yeah, and it didn't help when during the BLM protests, when social distancing was being trumpeted in all contexts, a number of doctors (can't remember if the CDC endorsed it or not) came out and said the massive crowds at the protests were acceptable because "race issues are health issues too" or something to that effect. That's obviously hypocritical to anyone with half a brain Here's the letter https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1b7K1A/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1... This quote is mind boggling "Even so, we continue to support demonstrators who are tackling the paramount public health problem of pervasive racism."

Akronymus 5y ago

From what I remember, it started with saying you'd be stupid to take "the trump vaccine". (In less pleasant language) To me, it seems to have been politicized by the left first. This in combination with the RAPID flip of the coverage/opinion from the left after Biden took the presidency seems like a pretty good explanation for a good part of the rights defiance.

evgen 5y ago
NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' No one. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting areas) so maybe this wasn't so bad after all and we can just wait for 'herd immunity' was the claim of the Trump crowd. You have a serious problem with reality and the truth if you think that people on the left waited until after the election to start pushing for a vaccine and for trying to take active steps to contain and control Covid spread.
- iszomer 5y ago
  Outside of social media, iirc, there was footage of certain political figures such as then Gov. Cuomo publicly rejecting the vaccine deployment in his state, during Trump's administration. Since people relied on social media more often than cable TV, I suppose there were lots of amplified "lost in translation" moments. A simple keyword search of "Trump vaccine" on reddit yields massive cognitive dissonance and a sociopath would conflate their bias from all the subreddits the keywords are found.
- Akronymus 5y ago
  >NO ONE was calling it 'the Trump vaccine.' While most didn't say trump vaccine directly, they alluded to trump being the main push behind it. >. No one on the left was polarizing response to Covid other than complaining that the current government was downplaying the severity. It apparently was racist to close the border for china. MANY people called trumps response overblown, until suddenly it was way too little. >Even when it was apparent to the entire planet that this was a serious pandemic the right was pretending nothing was wrong. "The right" was much faster to react than the left. That includes initial response and calling for opening back up. >Then it was not really a problem because the first places it hit were large urban centers (aka Democratic-voting areas) so maybe this wasn't so bad after all and we can just wait for 'herd immunity' was the claim of the Trump crowd. I have a hard time finding any source on that. Could you link me any? >You have a serious problem with reality and the truth if you think that people on the left waited until after the election to start pushing for a vaccine and for trying to take active steps to contain and control Covid spread. I am not saying that EVERYONE on the left was like that, just that I first started seeing the politicization come from the left. Quite an important difference. These are examples that took me just a few minutes to find again with people who flipped their opinion quite hard, along with that, trump has been pro vaccine for a long time. https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/1297887665480593409 https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/129788766548059340... https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/1389424632491495431 https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/138942463249149543... https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/1302656968377548800 https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/13026569683775488... https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/1421188900177866753 https://twitter.com/taradublinrocks/status/14211889001778667... https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1334201006108839936 https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1334201006108839936 https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1421641394645577732 https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1421641394645577732 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1304144185419800579 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1304144185419800579 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1386686118691844100 https://twitter.com/tonyposnanski/status/1386686118691844100 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1298300531614658561 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1298300531614658561 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1414910318782861323 https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1414910318782861323 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1306762734076342273 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1306762734076342273 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1429803419108249606 https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1429803419108249606

jimbob45 5y ago

>And now you see the right's version of "Resist" by avoiding vaccinations "I love our people, so I want our people to take the vaccines." - Trump "As a boy, I fought polio. Today, America’s been polio-free for 40 years — thanks to vaccinations. We’ll beat Covid-19 with vaccines, too. Protect yourself and your family. Get vaccinated." - McConnell "Democrats and the media scoffed when @realDonaldTrump said we’d have a safe and effective vaccine this year, but he kept his promise!" - Kevin McCarthy, House minority leader All of Republican leadership is urging people to get the vaccine. Anti-vaxxers think they're on the side of Republicans but, come midterms in 14 months, they're going to figure out that they're not on anyone's side. Edit: I would love to hear from anyone old enough to remember what happened during a time in history when a large coalition of people thought they had representation in one party or the other but actually had no representation in either party. What happened during the subsequent election?

BitwiseFool 5y ago

The one that made me the most upset was how large gatherings were bad, unless one was protesting about racial injustice. In which case, don't worry, those protestors had masks on. Well, if merely having a mask on in a thousands large march is okay, why not just allow all sized gatherings provided one is wearing a face covering?

delecti 5y ago
An outdoor, fully-masked gathering is meaningfully different, and the people pushing against COVID restrictions were also pushing back against mask guidance. In reality, indoor masked gatherings were fairly safe, but the practical distinction was between outdoor masked or indoor unmasked.