6 ms·

You are talking about two different topics. The first case: this story is not an article. It's a press release, and I wish we would stop treating these like "s

You are talking about two different topics. The first case: this story is not an article. It's a press release, and I wish we would stop treating these like "scientific publications". The second case: there is a real debate going on, on a global level: should we use vaccines for booster vaccinations, or shouldn't we first vaccinate the whole world to get control of the pandemic. This is not only a question of medicine, this is also global politics, the rich North versus the not so rich rest of the world, patents and corporations versus saving lifes – debate is inevitable.

goinfar 5y ago
Inoculate the whole world against a coronavirus.. preposterous. Aren't the current EUA shots for targeting the initial alpha strain?
- swader999 5y ago
  Yes, it's impossible to produce, distribute and vaccinate eight billion people for a virus that mutates every few months and one that can persist in animal reservoirs.
  - psychometry 5y ago
    When a virus "mutates" it doesn't replace its entire genetic code. A vaccine might work just as well against a new variant if the mutations are in an irrelevant area (e.g. outside the sequence that codes for the spike protein).
    - swader999 5y ago
      Yes it might and it's not all or nothing either. Just like natural immunity can lessen the degree of future mutated infections, vaccine shots can too. The corona's spike protein though is a simple structure that will likely still infect (be able to get inside a cell) after many kinds of mutations - some of which won't be mitigated with previous vaccinations (mu is leaning this way). Contrast this with polio which has a Tetris like key that must link up with complex cellular proteins in our cells to enter. Slight mutations in this render it unable to pass through the cell wall. It's why vaccinating for this is so effective and long lived.
  - skyde 5y ago
    the real question is : Am I less likely to be hospitalized when getting delta strain if I am vaccinated for alpha strain
    - swader999 5y ago
      Yes I think this has enough data to support less severity of illness with Delta. And because you are still able to be socially functional with the reduced severity, on average, you'll be out and about spreading it and keeping it alive and changing. This will be an issue when your vaccine immunity wanes and perhaps they don't dial in the next version of the booster to match or get it to you in time It also depends how many months have elapsed since your last shot, more than five and it seems to be waning in Israel. With, mu early indications seem to point towards it not working to reduce severity.
    - soundnote 5y ago
      Yes, whatever other issues people have with vaccines or especially the politics around them, vaccines do reduce the chance of serious disease. They seem to be less effective than resistance gained through infection, but do protect against delta.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      > the real question is : Am I less likely to be hospitalized when getting delta strain if I am vaccinated for alpha strain That question has been asked and answered ad nauseum, it's a resounding yes, especially for the mRNA vaccines.
MontagFTB 5y ago
Well, yes and no. While they are different topics, both are trying to present facts to back up their viewpoint. Is it a _fact_ that a rhinovirus infection helps fight Covid? Is it a _fact_ that booster shots are necessary, or is the current vaccine regimen sufficient? The facts seem to be changing in headlines faster than I can recall.
- skyde 5y ago
  What you are calling fact is interpretation on statistic. But the statistics themself are fact. ex: number of case and hospitalization for vaccinated people vs unvaccinated people. So when you look at box ploy or histogram those are the facts. The fact don’t change every week only the interpretation. The only fact that we can say is really changing is the R0 value of the virus but this is expected because it change over time because of our actions! It’s more like the current price of a company stock on the NeeYork stock exchange will change every week. It change when we get new data about that company and reinterpret how much it”s worth
  - lurquer 5y ago
    > But the statistics themself are fact. ex: number of case and hospitalization for vaccinated people vs unvaccinated people. I wish that as so. The ‘factual’ statistics can be stretched however one wishes. For example, what does it mean to be vaccinated? Or, for that matter, what does it mean to ‘hospitalized’? Does it mean Covid symptoms necessitated hospitalization? Or, perhaps, everyone in the hospital who tested positive? Does it include ‘recovered’ patients who, for unrelated reasons, are still in the hospital, albeit no longer in a Covid ward? Etc. The statistics for this entire fiasco have been garbage. I wish it were not so. They certainly aren’t ‘facts’ as you suggest.
- IMTDb 5y ago
  > Is it a _fact_ that booster shots are necessary, or is the current vaccine regimen sufficient? The issue is that the words "necessary" and "sufficient" are left to the reader, and are deeply political. Some people will argue that we must do every possible thing in our power to save every possible life, so even a 0.01% of increased protection would be enough to make booster shots "necessary" and the current regiment "insufficient". Some other will accept loss of life, and will even call vaccine shots "unnecessary" since the vast majority of the population - especially the non fragile part - doesn't seem to suffer from covid. In their mind, our our natural immunity itself is "sufficient". Most people arguing on this subject are actually not arguing over scientific arguments, but are arguing over their own position between those two extremes. And they throw in some numbers / quote experts to sound more scientific than they really are in the vain hope to convince the other part that they are somehow more "right".
RobertRoberts 5y ago
Third case: Natural immunity needs to be required part of the discussion on any/all pandemic planning.

goinfar 5y ago

Inoculate the whole world against a coronavirus.. preposterous. Aren't the current EUA shots for targeting the initial alpha strain?

swader999 5y ago
Yes, it's impossible to produce, distribute and vaccinate eight billion people for a virus that mutates every few months and one that can persist in animal reservoirs.
- psychometry 5y ago
  When a virus "mutates" it doesn't replace its entire genetic code. A vaccine might work just as well against a new variant if the mutations are in an irrelevant area (e.g. outside the sequence that codes for the spike protein).
  - swader999 5y ago
    Yes it might and it's not all or nothing either. Just like natural immunity can lessen the degree of future mutated infections, vaccine shots can too. The corona's spike protein though is a simple structure that will likely still infect (be able to get inside a cell) after many kinds of mutations - some of which won't be mitigated with previous vaccinations (mu is leaning this way). Contrast this with polio which has a Tetris like key that must link up with complex cellular proteins in our cells to enter. Slight mutations in this render it unable to pass through the cell wall. It's why vaccinating for this is so effective and long lived.
- skyde 5y ago
  the real question is : Am I less likely to be hospitalized when getting delta strain if I am vaccinated for alpha strain
  - swader999 5y ago
    Yes I think this has enough data to support less severity of illness with Delta. And because you are still able to be socially functional with the reduced severity, on average, you'll be out and about spreading it and keeping it alive and changing. This will be an issue when your vaccine immunity wanes and perhaps they don't dial in the next version of the booster to match or get it to you in time It also depends how many months have elapsed since your last shot, more than five and it seems to be waning in Israel. With, mu early indications seem to point towards it not working to reduce severity.
  - soundnote 5y ago
    Yes, whatever other issues people have with vaccines or especially the politics around them, vaccines do reduce the chance of serious disease. They seem to be less effective than resistance gained through infection, but do protect against delta.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > the real question is : Am I less likely to be hospitalized when getting delta strain if I am vaccinated for alpha strain That question has been asked and answered ad nauseum, it's a resounding yes, especially for the mRNA vaccines.

MontagFTB 5y ago

Well, yes and no. While they are different topics, both are trying to present facts to back up their viewpoint. Is it a _fact_ that a rhinovirus infection helps fight Covid? Is it a _fact_ that booster shots are necessary, or is the current vaccine regimen sufficient? The facts seem to be changing in headlines faster than I can recall.

skyde 5y ago
What you are calling fact is interpretation on statistic. But the statistics themself are fact. ex: number of case and hospitalization for vaccinated people vs unvaccinated people. So when you look at box ploy or histogram those are the facts. The fact don’t change every week only the interpretation. The only fact that we can say is really changing is the R0 value of the virus but this is expected because it change over time because of our actions! It’s more like the current price of a company stock on the NeeYork stock exchange will change every week. It change when we get new data about that company and reinterpret how much it”s worth
- lurquer 5y ago
  > But the statistics themself are fact. ex: number of case and hospitalization for vaccinated people vs unvaccinated people. I wish that as so. The ‘factual’ statistics can be stretched however one wishes. For example, what does it mean to be vaccinated? Or, for that matter, what does it mean to ‘hospitalized’? Does it mean Covid symptoms necessitated hospitalization? Or, perhaps, everyone in the hospital who tested positive? Does it include ‘recovered’ patients who, for unrelated reasons, are still in the hospital, albeit no longer in a Covid ward? Etc. The statistics for this entire fiasco have been garbage. I wish it were not so. They certainly aren’t ‘facts’ as you suggest.
IMTDb 5y ago
> Is it a _fact_ that booster shots are necessary, or is the current vaccine regimen sufficient? The issue is that the words "necessary" and "sufficient" are left to the reader, and are deeply political. Some people will argue that we must do every possible thing in our power to save every possible life, so even a 0.01% of increased protection would be enough to make booster shots "necessary" and the current regiment "insufficient". Some other will accept loss of life, and will even call vaccine shots "unnecessary" since the vast majority of the population - especially the non fragile part - doesn't seem to suffer from covid. In their mind, our our natural immunity itself is "sufficient". Most people arguing on this subject are actually not arguing over scientific arguments, but are arguing over their own position between those two extremes. And they throw in some numbers / quote experts to sound more scientific than they really are in the vain hope to convince the other part that they are somehow more "right".

RobertRoberts 5y ago

Third case: Natural immunity needs to be required part of the discussion on any/all pandemic planning.