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It's a comforting thought, but I can assure you the poor have virtually nobody lobbying on their behalf. Not having disposable income and all.

deleted 5y ago
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blowski 5y ago
They really do. Unions, churches, charities.
- kazoomonger 5y ago
  They really don't. You're misusing the word "lobby". Churches and charities don't lobby politically for poor people, they take them on as a righteous burden to bear. Some churches and charities are even used as tax breaks for rich people. Unions used to, to some degree. They've mostly been neutered and have very limited political capital.
  - blowski 5y ago
    That’s a “no true Scotsman” argument if ever I’ve heard one. You can’t say nobody helps the poor, then disparage the significant amount of help people do give. I belong to a church, and the minister frequently represents vulnerable people in the local community to politicians. He’s also sponsored by the church to attend events campaigning on behalf of low-paid people in the UK. And we contribute to a fund which publishes articles and runs events to raise awareness about homelessness. If that doesn’t count as lobbying for people then I don’t know what does. I do wish it were more effective.
    - kazoomonger 5y ago
      It's not a "no true Scotsman" argument because "help" is a vague term to begin with. Lots of churches say nice things while extracting maximum revenue from their congregation. Can you point to any actual political changes that have occurred as a result, or is it just some nice words?
      - blowski 5y ago
        I get the feeling I could write a long list with everything religious groups have done to help the poor - from the abolition of slavery, to Sikh Gurudwaras providing food, to groups like “Christians Against Poverty” campaigning against excessive interest on payday loans - but somehow none of that would count.
robomartin 5y ago
This isn’t going to be a popular comment, yet, it has to be said because it is painfully obvious reality escapes some. Here it goes: The poor do not elevate the poor out of poverty. If you want to chip away at poverty you have to create incentives for entrepreneurs, investors, business people and, yes, the rich, to engage in favorable economic activity. One of the simplest ways to do this is through the tax code. As much as I hate using taxation to promote behavior, that’s the best way we know so far. We have lifted more people out of poverty through these methods than any other way. Be careful what you wish for, because government has never, in the history of humanity, elevated the poor. Quite to the contrary.
- mushbino 5y ago
  For one, taxes are levied by governments not the free market. China has lifted 800 million out of poverty and wasn't because they all of a sudden decided to collectively pull their bootstraps. The free market is what doesn't alleviate poverty, quite the opposite. https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/china/overview https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/china/overview
  - robomartin 5y ago
    > China has lifted 800 million out of poverty and wasn't because they all of a sudden decided to collectively pull their bootstraps. The disconnect in what you are implying here is astounding. China elevated massive numbers of people out of poverty precisely because they turned violently capitalistic and entrepreneurial when it comes to business, far more so than likely any other society on the planet. The main decision their government made was to get the heck out of the way. I can understand that people who might not do business directly with Chinese companies likely lack an understanding of what things look like. Well, I do, have been for decades. I am sad to say doing business with Chinese companies can be massively easier than with US companies. The entrepreneurial spirit and drive in China is incredibly strong and refreshing to watch. You actually want to do business with them because they want to get things done. If you think government has the power to raise 800 million people out of poverty in complete isolation of a massive step change in business activity you don't have even the most fundamental understanding of economics. This is one of the most perplexing things I continue to experience on HN. This is a Y-combinator related forum. You'd think people voicing opinions here would have a modicum of business and economics chops. You'd think that, at the very least, they would devote a bit of time to doing simple math before forming opinions. And yet, what you see here time and time again are comments such as yours, which reveal a deep disconnect between even the most basic understanding of how the world operates and the importance of business.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

blowski 5y ago

They really do. Unions, churches, charities.

kazoomonger 5y ago
They really don't. You're misusing the word "lobby". Churches and charities don't lobby politically for poor people, they take them on as a righteous burden to bear. Some churches and charities are even used as tax breaks for rich people. Unions used to, to some degree. They've mostly been neutered and have very limited political capital.
- blowski 5y ago
  That’s a “no true Scotsman” argument if ever I’ve heard one. You can’t say nobody helps the poor, then disparage the significant amount of help people do give. I belong to a church, and the minister frequently represents vulnerable people in the local community to politicians. He’s also sponsored by the church to attend events campaigning on behalf of low-paid people in the UK. And we contribute to a fund which publishes articles and runs events to raise awareness about homelessness. If that doesn’t count as lobbying for people then I don’t know what does. I do wish it were more effective.
  - kazoomonger 5y ago
    It's not a "no true Scotsman" argument because "help" is a vague term to begin with. Lots of churches say nice things while extracting maximum revenue from their congregation. Can you point to any actual political changes that have occurred as a result, or is it just some nice words?
    - blowski 5y ago
      I get the feeling I could write a long list with everything religious groups have done to help the poor - from the abolition of slavery, to Sikh Gurudwaras providing food, to groups like “Christians Against Poverty” campaigning against excessive interest on payday loans - but somehow none of that would count.

robomartin 5y ago

This isn’t going to be a popular comment, yet, it has to be said because it is painfully obvious reality escapes some. Here it goes: The poor do not elevate the poor out of poverty. If you want to chip away at poverty you have to create incentives for entrepreneurs, investors, business people and, yes, the rich, to engage in favorable economic activity. One of the simplest ways to do this is through the tax code. As much as I hate using taxation to promote behavior, that’s the best way we know so far. We have lifted more people out of poverty through these methods than any other way. Be careful what you wish for, because government has never, in the history of humanity, elevated the poor. Quite to the contrary.

mushbino 5y ago
For one, taxes are levied by governments not the free market. China has lifted 800 million out of poverty and wasn't because they all of a sudden decided to collectively pull their bootstraps. The free market is what doesn't alleviate poverty, quite the opposite. https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/china/overview https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/china/overview
- robomartin 5y ago
  > China has lifted 800 million out of poverty and wasn't because they all of a sudden decided to collectively pull their bootstraps. The disconnect in what you are implying here is astounding. China elevated massive numbers of people out of poverty precisely because they turned violently capitalistic and entrepreneurial when it comes to business, far more so than likely any other society on the planet. The main decision their government made was to get the heck out of the way. I can understand that people who might not do business directly with Chinese companies likely lack an understanding of what things look like. Well, I do, have been for decades. I am sad to say doing business with Chinese companies can be massively easier than with US companies. The entrepreneurial spirit and drive in China is incredibly strong and refreshing to watch. You actually want to do business with them because they want to get things done. If you think government has the power to raise 800 million people out of poverty in complete isolation of a massive step change in business activity you don't have even the most fundamental understanding of economics. This is one of the most perplexing things I continue to experience on HN. This is a Y-combinator related forum. You'd think people voicing opinions here would have a modicum of business and economics chops. You'd think that, at the very least, they would devote a bit of time to doing simple math before forming opinions. And yet, what you see here time and time again are comments such as yours, which reveal a deep disconnect between even the most basic understanding of how the world operates and the importance of business.