4 ms·

Monero supports crime as much as cash supports crime. Doors and curtains also support crime, but somehow some basic privacy is fundamental human right. For now.

by SXX 5y ago

Monero supports crime as much as cash supports crime. Doors and curtains also support crime, but somehow some basic privacy is fundamental human right. For now... Also in some countries police still don't just scan all your bank transactions 24/7 and there is presumption of innocence in criminal law.

bb88 5y ago
> Monero supports crime as much as cash supports crime. Cash has serial numbers which means it needs to be laundered, since banks work with the FBI to trace where bills with serial numbers show up.
- SXX 5y ago
  Money laundering just make it more expensive for criminals to get the profits. So does crypto due to ever moving exchange rates, comissions, etc. Also just want to remind you that the world doesn't end on US soil and once you moved cash to a different country this kind of tracking becomes more and more complicated.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    How are you going to get huge quantities of cash across borders without anyone noticing? Even the Narcos know thats a bad plan, they used binders of gift cards.
    - SXX 5y ago
      I'm not a money laundering expert, but when you already using crypto with a huge chance to lose 10-30% on exchange rate flunctations I don't believe it's that hard to come up with an idea. Let's say you'll make a fake startup funded by VCs from all around the world. There is plenty of people who will love to buy few million dollars with 30% discount. This isn't about some petty crime though, but again it's much easier to move smaller amount of money anyway.
      - bb88 5y ago
        > I'm not a money laundering expert. Then why are you regurgitating this uninformed vomit passing as currency expertise? You clearly don't understand how money laundering works with paper cash, and you think the only thing that matters is "cost".
        SXX 5y ago
        Okay, now this is rude. We're on public forum here sharing our opinions. Mine are based on the fact that I do know how online criminals operate as well as how money laundering work in my country. I really can't speak about US and how FBI works, but again most of online criminals are not operate in the US.
        bb88 5y ago
        I think what's dangerous frankly is when crypto "experts" try to claim something is when it ain't -- in a public forum. You just can't make a claim and then say later, "But I'm not an expert."
        SXX 5y ago
        Whatever. Go forward with your witch hunt. I personally never use crypto myself, though do some contract development on Eth-powered projects. As about money laundering your opinion is one of a person living in western country with working institutions and strong legal frameworks. Unfortunately this isn't the case in many places around the globe. There is tons of countries where everything is just a question of % you want to pay.
        bb88 5y ago
        Saddam Hussein who controlled his own currency (and even had his face on it) wanted US Dollars. The wanting of US Dollars (and laundering them) isn't limited to those who live in a western country.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      Lol do you have any idea how porous the US-Mexico border is? Money can cross the same way 10s of thousands of kilos does, only traffic is even less scrutinized going south than it is going north.
  - bb88 5y ago
    Cash is legitimately harder to launder than some cryptocurrency. It's not about the expense, it's the infrastructure you have to build. Front companies and shell companies to move the money around. The more cash you have to launder the more of these entities you'll need. The more paper records you generate the more likely you're going to get raided by the FBI, Scotland Yard, etc.
  - lmm 5y ago
    > Money laundering just make it more expensive for criminals to get the profits. Every anti-crime measure only makes crime more expensive, that's the whole mechanism by which they work.
arcticbull 5y ago
This is a common trope, but incorrect. Cash is really hard to do crime with. You can't actually get any meaningful quantity of it without having a SAR or CTR filed on you (or the person obtaining it). It's big and bulky, it's uniquely numbered and traceable. You can't deposit any meaningful quantity without having a SAR or CTR filed. Converting it back into something digital, anonymously/untraceably requires laundering it where you end up losing 20-70% of the value. Cash sucks for any meaningful crime. Cash is designed to be traceable and to move millions of it would be truly a feat. On the other hand you can move billions of crypto for the fuck of it. Crypto is good for crime. > Also in some countries police still don't just scan all your bank transactions 24/7 and there is presumption of innocence in criminal law. The US draws the right balance: your transactions are private until the court authorizes the police obtain them on the basis of probable cause. Now it may not be executed perfectly every time but that's advocating for reforming that system, not throwing it out.
- rajamaka 5y ago
  You still need to convert crypto to clean money to actually spend it, which is equally as difficult to do as cash.
- SXX 5y ago
  You do have valid points, but again it's all about cost of doing business. Fortunatrly majority of criminals are just people making money and not just crazy who want to watch world burn. So if their ROI is 1000% and they're okay with the risks they still gonna run their shady businesses even if cost of doing business will double or triple. War on drugs has proven that it's impossible to fight this kind of activity no matter how much resources you throw at it. And running scams / botnets / extortion on internet is way less risky criminal activity than selling drugs. > The US draws the right balance Unfortunately it doesn't work like this in most of the world and US isn't about to invite remaining 95% of world population to join the party. It's not that I support criminals, but majority of crime on internet (not counting actually selling drugs) is either scams, botnets or extortion. IMHO they all can only be solved by combination of educating people better and improving systems security overall. Instead western government promise to solve crime with surveillance, draconian AML policies and censorship. After all it worked so well in authoritarian countries all around the world. /s

by SXX 5y ago

bb88 5y ago

> Monero supports crime as much as cash supports crime. Cash has serial numbers which means it needs to be laundered, since banks work with the FBI to trace where bills with serial numbers show up.

SXX 5y ago
Money laundering just make it more expensive for criminals to get the profits. So does crypto due to ever moving exchange rates, comissions, etc. Also just want to remind you that the world doesn't end on US soil and once you moved cash to a different country this kind of tracking becomes more and more complicated.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  How are you going to get huge quantities of cash across borders without anyone noticing? Even the Narcos know thats a bad plan, they used binders of gift cards.
  - SXX 5y ago
    I'm not a money laundering expert, but when you already using crypto with a huge chance to lose 10-30% on exchange rate flunctations I don't believe it's that hard to come up with an idea. Let's say you'll make a fake startup funded by VCs from all around the world. There is plenty of people who will love to buy few million dollars with 30% discount. This isn't about some petty crime though, but again it's much easier to move smaller amount of money anyway.
    - bb88 5y ago
      > I'm not a money laundering expert. Then why are you regurgitating this uninformed vomit passing as currency expertise? You clearly don't understand how money laundering works with paper cash, and you think the only thing that matters is "cost".
      - SXX 5y ago
        Okay, now this is rude. We're on public forum here sharing our opinions. Mine are based on the fact that I do know how online criminals operate as well as how money laundering work in my country. I really can't speak about US and how FBI works, but again most of online criminals are not operate in the US.
        bb88 5y ago
        I think what's dangerous frankly is when crypto "experts" try to claim something is when it ain't -- in a public forum. You just can't make a claim and then say later, "But I'm not an expert."
        SXX 5y ago
        Whatever. Go forward with your witch hunt. I personally never use crypto myself, though do some contract development on Eth-powered projects. As about money laundering your opinion is one of a person living in western country with working institutions and strong legal frameworks. Unfortunately this isn't the case in many places around the globe. There is tons of countries where everything is just a question of % you want to pay.
        bb88 5y ago
        Saddam Hussein who controlled his own currency (and even had his face on it) wanted US Dollars. The wanting of US Dollars (and laundering them) isn't limited to those who live in a western country.
  - quantumBerry 5y ago
    Lol do you have any idea how porous the US-Mexico border is? Money can cross the same way 10s of thousands of kilos does, only traffic is even less scrutinized going south than it is going north.
- bb88 5y ago
  Cash is legitimately harder to launder than some cryptocurrency. It's not about the expense, it's the infrastructure you have to build. Front companies and shell companies to move the money around. The more cash you have to launder the more of these entities you'll need. The more paper records you generate the more likely you're going to get raided by the FBI, Scotland Yard, etc.
- lmm 5y ago
  > Money laundering just make it more expensive for criminals to get the profits. Every anti-crime measure only makes crime more expensive, that's the whole mechanism by which they work.

arcticbull 5y ago

This is a common trope, but incorrect. Cash is really hard to do crime with. You can't actually get any meaningful quantity of it without having a SAR or CTR filed on you (or the person obtaining it). It's big and bulky, it's uniquely numbered and traceable. You can't deposit any meaningful quantity without having a SAR or CTR filed. Converting it back into something digital, anonymously/untraceably requires laundering it where you end up losing 20-70% of the value. Cash sucks for any meaningful crime. Cash is designed to be traceable and to move millions of it would be truly a feat. On the other hand you can move billions of crypto for the fuck of it. Crypto is good for crime. > Also in some countries police still don't just scan all your bank transactions 24/7 and there is presumption of innocence in criminal law. The US draws the right balance: your transactions are private until the court authorizes the police obtain them on the basis of probable cause. Now it may not be executed perfectly every time but that's advocating for reforming that system, not throwing it out.

rajamaka 5y ago
You still need to convert crypto to clean money to actually spend it, which is equally as difficult to do as cash.
SXX 5y ago
You do have valid points, but again it's all about cost of doing business. Fortunatrly majority of criminals are just people making money and not just crazy who want to watch world burn. So if their ROI is 1000% and they're okay with the risks they still gonna run their shady businesses even if cost of doing business will double or triple. War on drugs has proven that it's impossible to fight this kind of activity no matter how much resources you throw at it. And running scams / botnets / extortion on internet is way less risky criminal activity than selling drugs. > The US draws the right balance Unfortunately it doesn't work like this in most of the world and US isn't about to invite remaining 95% of world population to join the party. It's not that I support criminals, but majority of crime on internet (not counting actually selling drugs) is either scams, botnets or extortion. IMHO they all can only be solved by combination of educating people better and improving systems security overall. Instead western government promise to solve crime with surveillance, draconian AML policies and censorship. After all it worked so well in authoritarian countries all around the world. /s