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Even if it happens like you suggest, things will simply return to status quo, and the Native Americans won’t be worse off than they had been before. In fact, th

by xyzzyz 5y ago

Even if it happens like you suggest, things will simply return to status quo, and the Native Americans won’t be worse off than they had been before. In fact, they will benefit during the period from the free trade zone set up to when the state/federal government wreckers figure out how to screw them too. This is still better off than the status quo, where they simply never benefit from it at all.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
I'm not seeing how they benefit even in the short term. The businesses would all be owned by people outside the tribe, the entire point is to have low/no taxes, and the infrastructure built is unlikely to be useful after the business is gone. Maybe they hire some tribe members for jobs, but I would bet only for the untrained jobs. Possibly they'd benefit some from selling/leasing the land and other set up fees, but even that they might pull the usual corporate "tax break" scheme. Besides, it's entirely possible the way the state fixes this "loophole" puts them in a worse position than currently. The history of renegotiating often doesn't end well for the Natives.
- AbrahamParangi 5y ago
  They benefit because this whole scheme operates only at the pleasure of the local tribe. They have all the leverage and should be able to extract fair compensation.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  > I'm not seeing how they benefit even in the short term. The businesses would all be owned by people outside the tribe, the entire point is to have low/no taxes, and the infrastructure built is unlikely to be useful after the business is gone. For Tesla at least, taxes are not so much an issue as the regulatory regime prohibiting them from operating outside of reservation altogether. They are happy to pay higher tax, if the alternative is inability to sell cars at all. But, in general, even if the tax rates on tribal lands are lower than on regular state lands, the tribes still benefit, because it is them who collect the tax, rather than the State. Many polities would rather have a smaller bite of a cake rather than no cake at all. Look at Ireland, for example, which is greatly benefiting exactly from being a EU tax haven: sure, it collects less from Google or Apple than, say, France or Italy would, but they still benefit from their low tax policy. > and the infrastructure built is unlikely to be useful after the business is gone If you read the casino, you’ll find that Tesla is actually renovating and using a former casino facility. > Besides, it's entirely possible the way the state fixes this "loophole" puts them in a worse position than currently. The history of renegotiating often doesn't end well for the Natives. Yeah, that’s sadly correct: the governments tend to screw small people over when it sees its power and revenues diminished.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    I was replying to someone saying the tribes should "Establish free trade zones, not subject to the anti-business, heavily taxed rest of the states," not really talking about Tesla's store in particular. Other than that, tax havens have more independence than reservations do. They have theoretical sovereignty, but the federal government largely controls things like police and education. Like when one tried to legalize recreational marijuana the feds immediately threatened a raid.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      The tribes have their own police forces.
      - sterlind 5y ago
        Tribal police have power over their enrolled members (arrest, jail etc.) some power over outsiders (they can arrest but not hold or sentence people? I think? but maybe they're fighting about this?) and they, like all police forces, can't interfere with Federal agents (though they aren't obligated to enforce federal laws.)
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        While I'm sure there are some with a local police force, they are all overseen by the Bureau of Indian Affairs Police.
    - sterlind 5y ago
      Weed is legal on many (but not all) of the reservations in my state. It's legal in the state too though, which probably smoothed things out.
- GaryTang 5y ago
  As someone who has owned a business on reservation land, the tribe benefits like any community does from business. They tax the sht out of you, you employ their constituents, you create value for your customers that are local and non-local, & the non-locals buy food or rent a room at the casino. The value for the tribe is absolutely enormous.
  - mark336 5y ago
    As a person who is Native from S. America and knows about Native-American issues: I second this, YES they benefit. Don't know many tribes that wouldn't accept such an offer.

by xyzzyz 5y ago

boomboomsubban 5y ago

I'm not seeing how they benefit even in the short term. The businesses would all be owned by people outside the tribe, the entire point is to have low/no taxes, and the infrastructure built is unlikely to be useful after the business is gone. Maybe they hire some tribe members for jobs, but I would bet only for the untrained jobs. Possibly they'd benefit some from selling/leasing the land and other set up fees, but even that they might pull the usual corporate "tax break" scheme. Besides, it's entirely possible the way the state fixes this "loophole" puts them in a worse position than currently. The history of renegotiating often doesn't end well for the Natives.

AbrahamParangi 5y ago
They benefit because this whole scheme operates only at the pleasure of the local tribe. They have all the leverage and should be able to extract fair compensation.
xyzzyz 5y ago
> I'm not seeing how they benefit even in the short term. The businesses would all be owned by people outside the tribe, the entire point is to have low/no taxes, and the infrastructure built is unlikely to be useful after the business is gone. For Tesla at least, taxes are not so much an issue as the regulatory regime prohibiting them from operating outside of reservation altogether. They are happy to pay higher tax, if the alternative is inability to sell cars at all. But, in general, even if the tax rates on tribal lands are lower than on regular state lands, the tribes still benefit, because it is them who collect the tax, rather than the State. Many polities would rather have a smaller bite of a cake rather than no cake at all. Look at Ireland, for example, which is greatly benefiting exactly from being a EU tax haven: sure, it collects less from Google or Apple than, say, France or Italy would, but they still benefit from their low tax policy. > and the infrastructure built is unlikely to be useful after the business is gone If you read the casino, you’ll find that Tesla is actually renovating and using a former casino facility. > Besides, it's entirely possible the way the state fixes this "loophole" puts them in a worse position than currently. The history of renegotiating often doesn't end well for the Natives. Yeah, that’s sadly correct: the governments tend to screw small people over when it sees its power and revenues diminished.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  I was replying to someone saying the tribes should "Establish free trade zones, not subject to the anti-business, heavily taxed rest of the states," not really talking about Tesla's store in particular. Other than that, tax havens have more independence than reservations do. They have theoretical sovereignty, but the federal government largely controls things like police and education. Like when one tried to legalize recreational marijuana the feds immediately threatened a raid.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    The tribes have their own police forces.
    - sterlind 5y ago
      Tribal police have power over their enrolled members (arrest, jail etc.) some power over outsiders (they can arrest but not hold or sentence people? I think? but maybe they're fighting about this?) and they, like all police forces, can't interfere with Federal agents (though they aren't obligated to enforce federal laws.)
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      While I'm sure there are some with a local police force, they are all overseen by the Bureau of Indian Affairs Police.
  - sterlind 5y ago
    Weed is legal on many (but not all) of the reservations in my state. It's legal in the state too though, which probably smoothed things out.
GaryTang 5y ago
As someone who has owned a business on reservation land, the tribe benefits like any community does from business. They tax the sht out of you, you employ their constituents, you create value for your customers that are local and non-local, & the non-locals buy food or rent a room at the casino. The value for the tribe is absolutely enormous.
- mark336 5y ago
  As a person who is Native from S. America and knows about Native-American issues: I second this, YES they benefit. Don't know many tribes that wouldn't accept such an offer.