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I don't think it really matters how it's normally achieved. The point is that it can be achieved through conscious choice. I used to be slightly underweight wh

by int3 5y ago

I don't think it really matters how it's normally achieved. The point is that it can be achieved through conscious choice. I used to be slightly underweight when I was younger, and could eat endlessly with no consequence. These days I have to consciously watch my calories. It was a bit difficult at first, but I've gotten used to it. Conscious thought is not a replacement for automatic regulation in itself, but you can consciously work to form new habits.

danaris 5y ago
> The point is that it can be achieved through conscious choice. "It's normal and trivial for me; therefore, anyone who doesn't do it right must be lazy/greedy/insufficiently determined!" There are so many ways that different people's bodies and brains are different, it is patently clear that the idea that it is realistically possible for every human to achieve and maintain what our current society says is an "ideal weight" over the course of years, no matter their physical, psychological, or financial situation is just another way for certain people to see themselves as more worthy and morally upright than others.
- andreskytt 5y ago
  Most people are capable of running the marathon after some training but most don’t. The fact, that, theoretically, it is possible to loose weight by conscious choice (I have), does not mean it is reasonable to expect everyone to do it. I know very well how hard it is. Thus, “it is possible” and “you should have done it” are not equivalent statements
perl4ever 5y ago
Surely the experience of it becoming harder can be extrapolated? If it's a little harder for you, then it could be much harder for some people? Giving up alcohol is way easier for some people than others. Lots of people have written about what alcoholism is like; have you ever read Lawrence Block's Matthew Scudder novels?
lkey 5y ago
Believe it or not, fat people receive this kind of anecdotal lecture unprompted throughout their lives. It is precisely these attitudes that the article addresses directly. If you assume the problem is simple and easy to solve, then anyone who hasn't solved it has a character defect. Needless to say, receiving this kind of pep-talk is annoying and unpleasant. I'd encourage you to read the article or study directly and perhaps ponder what it might feel like to not have been able to eat endlessly from the moment you were born before telling someone else how best to handle a medication actively dis-regulating their metabolism.
- birksherty 5y ago
  Are all people obese due to medication? The article from beginning tries to say it's not due to difference in total calorie taken and used. Is it really not the case? People always chose sugary food over fruits, veg and meat whenever they are hungry. edit: Want to add that people also eat way too frequently, which makes us feel hungry (falsely) whenever not eating in that schedule. This can be averted by practice of eating less frequently few days. It does not mean starving, we just deviated from the normal and trying to go back.
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    There are things that have fundamentally changed in our bodies as a whole to make us have a different relationship with food and hunger. This change really started in the mid 19th and 20th century. Food security can't be the only explanation for this because there were dozens of periods in human civilization where food security was just as good or better. Not investigating this is causing lives lost and mental anguish. It's like we don't want to admit that fat people might have actually been fat because of other reasons other than being a failure.
- int3 5y ago
  You seem to be reading a lot into what I wrote. I never said anything about a "character defect", or that the problem is easy to solve. I'm saying that easy or hard, we do have agency. In particular, I disagree with these two statements from GP: > People who keep on gaining weight until they die must have a broken thermostat set on "high". It can't be psychological. > Because conscious thought is not a replacement for automatic regulation. I skimmed the article, but only because I've already read an entire book on the topic. I understand that there are hormonal effects on weight. That's no reason to throw your hands up and declare that you have no agency in the matter.
dvogel 5y ago
You're focusing on the overweight side of the ledger, causing your character judgement to kick into gear. Controlling your weight can be difficult without moral failure. When I was 14 I was desperate to gain weight (5'10" 128lbs) so I was eating nearly 3,000+ calories per day. I was lifting weights a few times per week for maybe 20-30 minutes but not much other exercise. Over the course of 5 years I gained a grand total of 19lbs. Weight gain is definitely not a simple calorie intake vs calories burned formula.
- birksherty 5y ago
  > not a simple calorie intake vs calories burned formula People have lost weight that way. At 14 your body was in growing phase. Clearly fat does not come from air. I gained weight last year and I know how it happened. What kind of food you eat (sugary packaged vs fruit veg meat) and lifestyle matters.
webmobdev 5y ago
I think what the article is trying to say is, yes, there is a behavioural (psychological) component. But there is also a metabolism (physical) component too that is not getting enough attention. (Your own example highlights this well - when you were younger, you could eat more, and / or perhaps lose weight faster too, but now your body's metabolism has changed and you put on weight more easily). For e.g. thyroid imbalances can cause someone to put on weight, and can be addressed medically. The author believes there may be many other similar factors at play behind someone's obesity. I partly agree with the author. But there is another factor - we also know that processed and / or junk foods definitely contributes to obesity. Yet, many obese people refuse to change their diet. If obese feel that they can't do without 1000 calories in their diet, why can't they eat 1000 calories of vegetables instead of 1000 calories of processed food? If gut bacteria plays a huge role in the kind of food we like to eat, then the author has a solid case ...

by int3 5y ago

danaris 5y ago

> The point is that it can be achieved through conscious choice. "It's normal and trivial for me; therefore, anyone who doesn't do it right must be lazy/greedy/insufficiently determined!" There are so many ways that different people's bodies and brains are different, it is patently clear that the idea that it is realistically possible for every human to achieve and maintain what our current society says is an "ideal weight" over the course of years, no matter their physical, psychological, or financial situation is just another way for certain people to see themselves as more worthy and morally upright than others.

andreskytt 5y ago
Most people are capable of running the marathon after some training but most don’t. The fact, that, theoretically, it is possible to loose weight by conscious choice (I have), does not mean it is reasonable to expect everyone to do it. I know very well how hard it is. Thus, “it is possible” and “you should have done it” are not equivalent statements

perl4ever 5y ago

Surely the experience of it becoming harder can be extrapolated? If it's a little harder for you, then it could be much harder for some people? Giving up alcohol is way easier for some people than others. Lots of people have written about what alcoholism is like; have you ever read Lawrence Block's Matthew Scudder novels?

lkey 5y ago

Believe it or not, fat people receive this kind of anecdotal lecture unprompted throughout their lives. It is precisely these attitudes that the article addresses directly. If you assume the problem is simple and easy to solve, then anyone who hasn't solved it has a character defect. Needless to say, receiving this kind of pep-talk is annoying and unpleasant. I'd encourage you to read the article or study directly and perhaps ponder what it might feel like to not have been able to eat endlessly from the moment you were born before telling someone else how best to handle a medication actively dis-regulating their metabolism.

birksherty 5y ago
Are all people obese due to medication? The article from beginning tries to say it's not due to difference in total calorie taken and used. Is it really not the case? People always chose sugary food over fruits, veg and meat whenever they are hungry. edit: Want to add that people also eat way too frequently, which makes us feel hungry (falsely) whenever not eating in that schedule. This can be averted by practice of eating less frequently few days. It does not mean starving, we just deviated from the normal and trying to go back.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  There are things that have fundamentally changed in our bodies as a whole to make us have a different relationship with food and hunger. This change really started in the mid 19th and 20th century. Food security can't be the only explanation for this because there were dozens of periods in human civilization where food security was just as good or better. Not investigating this is causing lives lost and mental anguish. It's like we don't want to admit that fat people might have actually been fat because of other reasons other than being a failure.
int3 5y ago
You seem to be reading a lot into what I wrote. I never said anything about a "character defect", or that the problem is easy to solve. I'm saying that easy or hard, we do have agency. In particular, I disagree with these two statements from GP: > People who keep on gaining weight until they die must have a broken thermostat set on "high". It can't be psychological. > Because conscious thought is not a replacement for automatic regulation. I skimmed the article, but only because I've already read an entire book on the topic. I understand that there are hormonal effects on weight. That's no reason to throw your hands up and declare that you have no agency in the matter.

dvogel 5y ago

You're focusing on the overweight side of the ledger, causing your character judgement to kick into gear. Controlling your weight can be difficult without moral failure. When I was 14 I was desperate to gain weight (5'10" 128lbs) so I was eating nearly 3,000+ calories per day. I was lifting weights a few times per week for maybe 20-30 minutes but not much other exercise. Over the course of 5 years I gained a grand total of 19lbs. Weight gain is definitely not a simple calorie intake vs calories burned formula.

birksherty 5y ago
> not a simple calorie intake vs calories burned formula People have lost weight that way. At 14 your body was in growing phase. Clearly fat does not come from air. I gained weight last year and I know how it happened. What kind of food you eat (sugary packaged vs fruit veg meat) and lifestyle matters.

webmobdev 5y ago

I think what the article is trying to say is, yes, there is a behavioural (psychological) component. But there is also a metabolism (physical) component too that is not getting enough attention. (Your own example highlights this well - when you were younger, you could eat more, and / or perhaps lose weight faster too, but now your body's metabolism has changed and you put on weight more easily). For e.g. thyroid imbalances can cause someone to put on weight, and can be addressed medically. The author believes there may be many other similar factors at play behind someone's obesity. I partly agree with the author. But there is another factor - we also know that processed and / or junk foods definitely contributes to obesity. Yet, many obese people refuse to change their diet. If obese feel that they can't do without 1000 calories in their diet, why can't they eat 1000 calories of vegetables instead of 1000 calories of processed food? If gut bacteria plays a huge role in the kind of food we like to eat, then the author has a solid case ...