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What part of that Wikipedia document do you think contradicts what I've said? The lede says: > Although there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew B

What part of that Wikipedia document do you think contradicts what I've said? The lede says: > Although there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed, some scholars hold that the Hebrew canon was established well before the first century AD – even as early as the fourth century BC, or by the Hasmonean dynasty (140–40 BC). The modern Hebrew canon does not include the seven deuterocanonical books, and this was the basis for excluding them from the Protestant Old Testament. And: > Since the 16th century, most Protestant churches have accepted only works in the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible as the canonical Old Testament, and hence classify all the non-protocanonical books from the Septuagint as apocrypha. Those two points more or less support the points I'm making. Of course much of this is debatable, I'm not denying that, but I think the preponderance of evidence strongly suggests that these books don't belong.

skissane 5y ago
You say the preponderance of evidence strongly suggests that these books don't belong. Meanwhile Wikipedia says there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed. Don't you think your statement and Wikipedia's are somewhat in conflict? It also says some scholars hold that the Hebrew canon was established well before the first century AD – even as early as the fourth century BC, or by the Hasmonean dynasty – but that is just the opinion of some scholars, and other scholars disagree. Contrary to the opinion of those scholars, I think there is good evidence that the canon was not fixed that early. The fact that Mishnah Yadayim records 2nd century CE Rabbis debating whether Qohelet(Ecclesiastes) and Song of Songs belonged in the canon or not is evidence that the Pharisees did not finish fixing their canon until the 2nd century CE, by which point Christianity had already begun to separate into a separate religion, and most Christians did not feel bound by the Pharisees' decisions.
- ImpressiveWebs 5y ago
  The fact that the canon wasn't fixed doesn't mean the apocryphal books were part of it. I'm saying there is little evidence to support that, even though the canon wasn't fixed. And again, that's just one of many arguments against the apocrophya. And that's besides the fact that even if there was some so-called "debate" about it, if the canon didn't actually change as a result of those debates (e.g. Song of Songs and Eccl. are part of the canon), then how can you say it wasn't fixed? I mean, that's just silly.
  - skissane 5y ago
    > The fact that the canon wasn't fixed doesn't mean the apocryphal books were part of it That's not the point. The point is that there wasn't a single canon, different sects of Jews had different canons. All these canons were overlapping – all Jews accepted the Torah, there was widespread (but not universal) acceptance of the Prophets; the third part of the Jewish canon, the Writings (Ketuvim) saw the most disagreement. And we have evidence that the canon of the Qumran community did include books now considered "apocryphal"–see https://www.jstor.org/stable/24663170 https://www.jstor.org/stable/24663170 Did some Greek-speaking Jews include "apocryphal" works in their canon, just as the Qumran community did? Well, we have evidence that the Qumran community included Greek-speaking Jews – most of the Dead Sea Scrolls were in Hebrew or Aramaic, but some Greek texts were recovered as well. We know that many Greek-speaking early Christians accepted some of the pre-Christian Greek "apocryphal"/"deuterocanonical" works as canonical. Why did they do that? Well, a very plausible hypothesis is that some Hellenistic Jews already accepted them as canonical, and Hellenistic Christianity inherited that acceptance from (segments of) Hellenistic Judaism. We don't have direct proof of that, but as a historical hypothesis it is very plausible, especially in light of the evidence from Qumran that some Jews (even Greek-speaking ones) did accept (other) "apocryphal" works in their canon. > And that's besides the fact that even if there was some so-called "debate" about it, if the canon didn't actually change as a result of those debates (e.g. Song of Songs and Eccl. are part of the canon), then how can you say it wasn't fixed? The canon did change. In the middle of the second century CE, the Pharisees still had multiple canons – a narrow canon which excluded Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes, a broad canon which included them, and also a couple of intermediate canons which included one but not the other. The outcome of this debate was that the broad canon won out over the narrow and intermediate ones, and supporters of those other canons died out. And, if we consider other Jewish groups such as the Sadducees or the Qumran community, we find even more Jewish canons than that. However, the 1st and 2nd centuries CE saw a great deal of decline in the diversity of Judaism, due to various factors (the trauma of the Jewish-Roman wars, competition from Christianity), and part of that decline in diversity was the reduction of multiple canons to one. But that reduction did not complete until after Christianity had already split off from Judaism, which is why many Christians (both in the early Church, and also today) do not believe that Christians are bound by it. And why do you dismiss it as 'some so-called "debate"'? It was a real debate, you can read the Mishnah for yourself – https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Yadayim.3.5?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Yadayim.3.5?lang=bi&with=all... – allow me to quote some of it: > All the Holy Scriptures defile the hands. The Song of Songs and Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) defile the hands. Rabbi Judah says: the Song of Songs defiles the hands, but there is a dispute about Kohelet. Rabbi Yose says: Kohelet does not defile the hands, but there is a dispute about the Song of Songs. Rabbi Shimon says: [the ruling about] Kohelet is one of the leniencies of Bet Shammai and one of the stringencies of Bet Hillel. All the Rabbis it quotes are known to have been active in the 2nd century CE. So in the 2nd century CE, there was a real debate among the (successors of the) Pharisees about the canonicity of Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. Furthermore, this passage gives evidence that the same debate was active in the 1st century CE as well (and possibly even the 1st century BCE too), through Rabbi Shimon's reference to Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel.
- deleted 5y ago
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skissane 5y ago

You say the preponderance of evidence strongly suggests that these books don't belong. Meanwhile Wikipedia says there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed. Don't you think your statement and Wikipedia's are somewhat in conflict? It also says some scholars hold that the Hebrew canon was established well before the first century AD – even as early as the fourth century BC, or by the Hasmonean dynasty – but that is just the opinion of some scholars, and other scholars disagree. Contrary to the opinion of those scholars, I think there is good evidence that the canon was not fixed that early. The fact that Mishnah Yadayim records 2nd century CE Rabbis debating whether Qohelet(Ecclesiastes) and Song of Songs belonged in the canon or not is evidence that the Pharisees did not finish fixing their canon until the 2nd century CE, by which point Christianity had already begun to separate into a separate religion, and most Christians did not feel bound by the Pharisees' decisions.

ImpressiveWebs 5y ago
The fact that the canon wasn't fixed doesn't mean the apocryphal books were part of it. I'm saying there is little evidence to support that, even though the canon wasn't fixed. And again, that's just one of many arguments against the apocrophya. And that's besides the fact that even if there was some so-called "debate" about it, if the canon didn't actually change as a result of those debates (e.g. Song of Songs and Eccl. are part of the canon), then how can you say it wasn't fixed? I mean, that's just silly.
- skissane 5y ago
  > The fact that the canon wasn't fixed doesn't mean the apocryphal books were part of it That's not the point. The point is that there wasn't a single canon, different sects of Jews had different canons. All these canons were overlapping – all Jews accepted the Torah, there was widespread (but not universal) acceptance of the Prophets; the third part of the Jewish canon, the Writings (Ketuvim) saw the most disagreement. And we have evidence that the canon of the Qumran community did include books now considered "apocryphal"–see https://www.jstor.org/stable/24663170 https://www.jstor.org/stable/24663170 Did some Greek-speaking Jews include "apocryphal" works in their canon, just as the Qumran community did? Well, we have evidence that the Qumran community included Greek-speaking Jews – most of the Dead Sea Scrolls were in Hebrew or Aramaic, but some Greek texts were recovered as well. We know that many Greek-speaking early Christians accepted some of the pre-Christian Greek "apocryphal"/"deuterocanonical" works as canonical. Why did they do that? Well, a very plausible hypothesis is that some Hellenistic Jews already accepted them as canonical, and Hellenistic Christianity inherited that acceptance from (segments of) Hellenistic Judaism. We don't have direct proof of that, but as a historical hypothesis it is very plausible, especially in light of the evidence from Qumran that some Jews (even Greek-speaking ones) did accept (other) "apocryphal" works in their canon. > And that's besides the fact that even if there was some so-called "debate" about it, if the canon didn't actually change as a result of those debates (e.g. Song of Songs and Eccl. are part of the canon), then how can you say it wasn't fixed? The canon did change. In the middle of the second century CE, the Pharisees still had multiple canons – a narrow canon which excluded Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes, a broad canon which included them, and also a couple of intermediate canons which included one but not the other. The outcome of this debate was that the broad canon won out over the narrow and intermediate ones, and supporters of those other canons died out. And, if we consider other Jewish groups such as the Sadducees or the Qumran community, we find even more Jewish canons than that. However, the 1st and 2nd centuries CE saw a great deal of decline in the diversity of Judaism, due to various factors (the trauma of the Jewish-Roman wars, competition from Christianity), and part of that decline in diversity was the reduction of multiple canons to one. But that reduction did not complete until after Christianity had already split off from Judaism, which is why many Christians (both in the early Church, and also today) do not believe that Christians are bound by it. And why do you dismiss it as 'some so-called "debate"'? It was a real debate, you can read the Mishnah for yourself – https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Yadayim.3.5?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Yadayim.3.5?lang=bi&with=all... – allow me to quote some of it: > All the Holy Scriptures defile the hands. The Song of Songs and Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) defile the hands. Rabbi Judah says: the Song of Songs defiles the hands, but there is a dispute about Kohelet. Rabbi Yose says: Kohelet does not defile the hands, but there is a dispute about the Song of Songs. Rabbi Shimon says: [the ruling about] Kohelet is one of the leniencies of Bet Shammai and one of the stringencies of Bet Hillel. All the Rabbis it quotes are known to have been active in the 2nd century CE. So in the 2nd century CE, there was a real debate among the (successors of the) Pharisees about the canonicity of Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. Furthermore, this passage gives evidence that the same debate was active in the 1st century CE as well (and possibly even the 1st century BCE too), through Rabbi Shimon's reference to Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel.
deleted 5y ago
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