4 ms·

Anyone know why this isn’t a loophole for all kinds of laws? They’re basically their own countries right?

by mrfusion 5y ago

HideousKojima 5y ago
It already is for gambling laws, obviously.
- protomyth 5y ago
  Well, not exactly. They are absolutely ruled by the Feds, and each tribe has a compact with the state that determines what kind of gambling can be done. As an example see https://500nations.com/Montana_Casinos.asp https://500nations.com/Montana_Casinos.asp
klyrs 5y ago
Year-round fireworks stands are another common one
jandrese 5y ago
It is, but in order to exploit the situation you have to get the tribal council on your side. So you can't set up a brothel on tribal lands because the tribe won't allow it.
- stevehawk 5y ago
  ... because it isn't profitable enough?
  - cco 5y ago
    I can only speak to weed, but the tribal reservation that I was on would not allow weed production for a couple reasons, one is that they receive quite a lot of federal funds and assistance, importantly they let the DEA run drug enforcement/stings, and the tribe doesn't want to rock the boat unless there is a very clear and well supported upside. Not everyone in the tribe would be supportive, i.e. it would be a political risk. You would probably generate some tax revenue, but especially in the early days (in Oregon), it wasn't clear how much you'd make, whether banks would support you, whether the DEA would get angry about "interstate" commerce, regardless of their actual jurisdiction etc. So their answer was, at the time no, you cannot grow weed commercially even though there wasn't really anything stopping them at that point. However they, and many other tribes, operate casinos(against the law in their state) and sell fireworks, potentially against state law or city ordinance; the latter because the ATF doesn't care, and the former because it represents over 80% of the tax revenue of the tribe and there is a history already built there between regulators and the tribe.
gamblor956 5y ago
Cars purchased on a reservation generally don't qualify for state EV incentives. Reservations are sovereign to a degree but are not their own countries; they are still subject to federal laws so they are essentially equal to states (see https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions). If reservations were were their own countries buyers would have to pay import duties if they took items purchased on reservation land off reservation lands. As for the eligibility guidelines, see CA's guidelines: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > Cars purchased on a reservation generally don't qualify for state EV incentives. Citation? Are you also claiming that if i live in NM but buy my Tesla from CA, there's also no state EV incentive?
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    Yes, because state EV incentives are limited to state residents. See, for example, from CA's EV incentives page: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/requirements/919 https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/requirements/919, or the more readable version: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines
    - jvanderbot 5y ago
      So, selling to non-state residents won't provide an incentive to the buyer, but buying from non-state residents would? I can buy my car from a foreign person and still receive incentives because I live in a state that offers them? This has little to do with selling cars on tribal lands if so.
      - gamblor956 5y ago
        No, both the buyer and the seller must be residents of the the state providing the incentive. Tribal land is not state land, so sales by tribal dealerships do not qualify for state incentives. This is decades-old established law across the U.S. This is just another example of Musk thinking he's found a clever loophole without realizing why nobody else was doing it in the first place (hint: because it doesn't work, and Tesla would have learned this spending less than an hour consulting with someone who handles tribal law).
vmception 5y ago
There are 500+ Of these distinct microstates in the US which aren’t even on any map. They all have their own separate case law, legal structure, processes. There is no chronicling or comparison of any of this. Current Indigenous people recognition suffers from overinclusivity, grouping many distinct cultures as one - which has been necessary for representation but is counterproductive in many ways. (For example, do all headdress wearing tribes care about who wears a headdress, how do you know one didnt create a licensing system specifically sanctioning random people wearing it for whatever reason, if they did sanction it are they the proper authority to sanction it, should a century long squabble between two tribes over this issue matter to us? These are the kind of nuanced questions that aren’t being asked) The infrastructure is very low in practically all. It doesn't have to be. Each one has to be approached distinctively. There is much that has never been challenged. There is no specific reason. Although there is a shared general distrust of those who look like the people in the majority.
- theandrewbailey 5y ago
  > There are 500+ Of these distinct microstates in the US which aren’t even on any map. There are approximately 326 Indian land areas in the U.S. administered as federal Indian reservations [0] https://biamaps.doi.gov/indianlands/ https://biamaps.doi.gov/indianlands/ https://www.bia.gov/sites/bia.gov/files/assets/public/webteam/pdf/idc1-028635.pdf https://www.bia.gov/sites/bia.gov/files/assets/public/webtea... [0] https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions
  - vmception 5y ago
    Thanks yes that would more accurately convey the semi-sovereignty available There are more tribes still seeking this
dougmwne 5y ago
It's highly complex. Tribal governments function sort of like limited U.S. states. Generally, federal law applies, but not the hosting U.S. state.
fnord77 5y ago
tax free tobacco, fireworks and gambling are what I have seen
babypuncher 5y ago
It is a loophole for lots of laws. Casinos are huge on reservations in states where gambling isn't illegal. There have also been many notable cases of shady payday loan companies moving onto reservations to escape regulations on interest rates and other fair practices around lending.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> They’re basically their own countries right? No. While they have their own laws subject to US federal law, that law has limited authority over non-Indians, especially on non-Indian owned property, on Indian reservations.
IncRnd 5y ago
They are sovereign nations, but often use a state compact. This "loophole" exists because of what was done to Native Americans.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > They are sovereign nations Yes, but not in the sense that the US is sovereign. Or even the sense that US States are sovereign. “Sovereign” in US domestic law means a lot of different things, and tribal governments are pretty much the least sovereign of all the US’s sovereginties.
protomyth 5y ago
No, sometimes, and yes. Its really a complicated relationship. To give a specific example, look at all the things in a police stop according to the latest SCOTUS ruling https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/affirmation-of-inherent-tribal-power-to-police-blurs-civil-and-criminal-indian-law-tests/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/affirmation-of-inherent-t... The reservations answer to the Feds and have compacts with the states. Tribal sovereignty is complicated.

Anyone know why this isn’t a loophole for all kinds of laws? They’re basically their own countries right?

HideousKojima 5y ago

It already is for gambling laws, obviously.

protomyth 5y ago
Well, not exactly. They are absolutely ruled by the Feds, and each tribe has a compact with the state that determines what kind of gambling can be done. As an example see https://500nations.com/Montana_Casinos.asp https://500nations.com/Montana_Casinos.asp

klyrs 5y ago

Year-round fireworks stands are another common one

jandrese 5y ago

It is, but in order to exploit the situation you have to get the tribal council on your side. So you can't set up a brothel on tribal lands because the tribe won't allow it.

stevehawk 5y ago
... because it isn't profitable enough?
- cco 5y ago
  I can only speak to weed, but the tribal reservation that I was on would not allow weed production for a couple reasons, one is that they receive quite a lot of federal funds and assistance, importantly they let the DEA run drug enforcement/stings, and the tribe doesn't want to rock the boat unless there is a very clear and well supported upside. Not everyone in the tribe would be supportive, i.e. it would be a political risk. You would probably generate some tax revenue, but especially in the early days (in Oregon), it wasn't clear how much you'd make, whether banks would support you, whether the DEA would get angry about "interstate" commerce, regardless of their actual jurisdiction etc. So their answer was, at the time no, you cannot grow weed commercially even though there wasn't really anything stopping them at that point. However they, and many other tribes, operate casinos(against the law in their state) and sell fireworks, potentially against state law or city ordinance; the latter because the ATF doesn't care, and the former because it represents over 80% of the tax revenue of the tribe and there is a history already built there between regulators and the tribe.

gamblor956 5y ago

Cars purchased on a reservation generally don't qualify for state EV incentives. Reservations are sovereign to a degree but are not their own countries; they are still subject to federal laws so they are essentially equal to states (see https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions). If reservations were were their own countries buyers would have to pay import duties if they took items purchased on reservation land off reservation lands. As for the eligibility guidelines, see CA's guidelines: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> Cars purchased on a reservation generally don't qualify for state EV incentives. Citation? Are you also claiming that if i live in NM but buy my Tesla from CA, there's also no state EV incentive?
- gamblor956 5y ago
  Yes, because state EV incentives are limited to state residents. See, for example, from CA's EV incentives page: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/requirements/919 https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/requirements/919, or the more readable version: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligibility-guidelines
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    So, selling to non-state residents won't provide an incentive to the buyer, but buying from non-state residents would? I can buy my car from a foreign person and still receive incentives because I live in a state that offers them? This has little to do with selling cars on tribal lands if so.
    - gamblor956 5y ago
      No, both the buyer and the seller must be residents of the the state providing the incentive. Tribal land is not state land, so sales by tribal dealerships do not qualify for state incentives. This is decades-old established law across the U.S. This is just another example of Musk thinking he's found a clever loophole without realizing why nobody else was doing it in the first place (hint: because it doesn't work, and Tesla would have learned this spending less than an hour consulting with someone who handles tribal law).

vmception 5y ago

There are 500+ Of these distinct microstates in the US which aren’t even on any map. They all have their own separate case law, legal structure, processes. There is no chronicling or comparison of any of this. Current Indigenous people recognition suffers from overinclusivity, grouping many distinct cultures as one - which has been necessary for representation but is counterproductive in many ways. (For example, do all headdress wearing tribes care about who wears a headdress, how do you know one didnt create a licensing system specifically sanctioning random people wearing it for whatever reason, if they did sanction it are they the proper authority to sanction it, should a century long squabble between two tribes over this issue matter to us? These are the kind of nuanced questions that aren’t being asked) The infrastructure is very low in practically all. It doesn't have to be. Each one has to be approached distinctively. There is much that has never been challenged. There is no specific reason. Although there is a shared general distrust of those who look like the people in the majority.

theandrewbailey 5y ago
> There are 500+ Of these distinct microstates in the US which aren’t even on any map. There are approximately 326 Indian land areas in the U.S. administered as federal Indian reservations [0] https://biamaps.doi.gov/indianlands/ https://biamaps.doi.gov/indianlands/ https://www.bia.gov/sites/bia.gov/files/assets/public/webteam/pdf/idc1-028635.pdf https://www.bia.gov/sites/bia.gov/files/assets/public/webtea... [0] https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions
- vmception 5y ago
  Thanks yes that would more accurately convey the semi-sovereignty available There are more tribes still seeking this

dougmwne 5y ago

It's highly complex. Tribal governments function sort of like limited U.S. states. Generally, federal law applies, but not the hosting U.S. state.

fnord77 5y ago

tax free tobacco, fireworks and gambling are what I have seen

babypuncher 5y ago

It is a loophole for lots of laws. Casinos are huge on reservations in states where gambling isn't illegal. There have also been many notable cases of shady payday loan companies moving onto reservations to escape regulations on interest rates and other fair practices around lending.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> They’re basically their own countries right? No. While they have their own laws subject to US federal law, that law has limited authority over non-Indians, especially on non-Indian owned property, on Indian reservations.

IncRnd 5y ago

They are sovereign nations, but often use a state compact. This "loophole" exists because of what was done to Native Americans.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> They are sovereign nations Yes, but not in the sense that the US is sovereign. Or even the sense that US States are sovereign. “Sovereign” in US domestic law means a lot of different things, and tribal governments are pretty much the least sovereign of all the US’s sovereginties.

protomyth 5y ago

No, sometimes, and yes. Its really a complicated relationship. To give a specific example, look at all the things in a police stop according to the latest SCOTUS ruling https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/affirmation-of-inherent-tribal-power-to-police-blurs-civil-and-criminal-indian-law-tests/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/affirmation-of-inherent-t... The reservations answer to the Feds and have compacts with the states. Tribal sovereignty is complicated.