7 ms·

Unpopular opinion around here: teachers aren't underpaid, they are drastically overpaid given the utter lack of results they produce. Certainly much of the bla

Unpopular opinion around here: teachers aren't underpaid, they are drastically overpaid given the utter lack of results they produce. Certainly much of the blame goes not to the teachers themselves but the entire public education industry, but you can't quibble the total lack of results.

HWR_14 5y ago
> Unpopular opinion around here: teachers aren't underpaid, they are drastically overpaid given the utter lack of results they produce. Teachers tend to be paid less than an assistant manager at a Walmart. And require a master's degree. Meanwhile, if you want different results, have teacher's judged differently. Right now, they're judged based on how well the worst performers in their class do. Of course they're going to focus on bringing up the rear.
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  > Teachers tend to be paid less than an assistant manager at a Walmart. And require a master's degree. Teachers on average make 62k nationally, get 2 months off a year, usually have great health care, pension, and have phenomenal job security. And I know plenty of teachers without master degrees.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    (Apparently, what I responded to was edited. This was in the original, and still holds true, so I'm leaving my response as written.) > I don't think this is true when you take into account benefits such as: > healthcare, Which WalMart Asst. Managers also get. Better health care in many cases. > job security How much is a secure but low paying job worth? Besides, once you're an assistant manager, you probably have decent job security if you don't fuck up. > pension WalMart Asst. Managers get access to a 401k. It's not a pension, but it's also not subject to fuckery by elected officials. And if you quit to do something better you can take it with you. > 3 months off a year. Teachers aren't paid for their 3 months off, and tend to work unpaid overtime during the year such that it evens out to being the equivalent of a fulltime, year round job anyway.
    - JamesBarney 5y ago
      Actually teacher's work less during the school year than other professionals. https://direct.mit.edu/edfp/article/9/3/231/10191/New-Measures-of-Teachers-Work-Hours-and https://direct.mit.edu/edfp/article/9/3/231/10191/New-Measur... Teachers get paid an additional ~$35,000 in benefits if they work for the state or federal government. https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-8/teachers-job-requirements.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-8/teachers-job-requireme... I seriously doubt Walmart assistant managers are getting anywhere near that level of benefits. I can't find any data on how much Walmart pays out in benefits, but you see to be pretty familiar with how much Walmart pays so please share. > How much is a secure but low paying job worth? Besides, once you're an assistant manager, you probably have decent job security if you don't fuck up. I know a bunch of teachers and a few principals and all of them across the board have said it's impossible to be fired as a teacher after the probationary period. I don't know any assistant managers at Walmart, but I've known a few front line managers at retail chains and they were always anxious about hitting their numbers.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        > Actually teacher's work less during the school year than other professionals. Yes, they average 36 hrs/wk over the full year instead of 40 hrs/wk. 10% less time. And they're off 2 or 3 months a year. So, that lines up with my "they tend to work about the equivalent of a regular fulltime job while only getting paid for 9-10 months" statement. > I seriously doubt Walmart assistant managers are getting anywhere near that level of benefits And the majority of that is in pension benefits which assumes they work until they earn it out. It's one of those clever accounting things where since most teachers quit after < 10 years, they don't get any of those awesome benefits. > I can't find any data on how much Walmart pays out in benefits, but you see to be pretty familiar with how much Walmart pays so please share. I mean, I've just googled it. I saw that they have some 401k plans and some stock purchase plans. They seem to offer decent enough insurance (in that they cover dental and vision as well as health) but I have no idea what their copays are. In looking it up, it seems they also pay for you tuition costs, which is nice. > I know a bunch of teachers and a few principals and all of them across the board have said it's impossible to be fired as a teacher after the probationary period. Yes. It's stupidly hard to fire a teacher. But if the underlying job sucks, being secure in it is irrelevant. If teachers tend to quit, it doesn't matter how hard it is to fire them. Also, the firing or not is very state dependent. The people I know in retail always seem anxious about their numbers, but I've never heard of any of them getting fired for missing them.
SonicScrub 5y ago
I'd encourage you to flip this same thought process around. Could it not be that the low-quality results are the result of low salaries discouraging quality people from entering the profession? You get what you pay for after-all. It shouldn't be too hard to find this correlation within the Unite States where average public school teacher pay can vary as much as $40,000 state-by-state [1]. https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/which-states-have-the-highest-and-lowest-teacher-salaries/2019/04 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/which-states-have-t...
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  Except that, at least in my state, there is an inverse relationship between teacher salaries by district and the education results (as measured by graduation and literacy rates)
cltby 5y ago
Even more unpopular opinion: genetics is destiny, so we'll never find a systematic effect of teachers on student learning.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Unpopular opinion around here: teachers aren't underpaid, they are drastically overpaid given the utter lack of results they produce. Remember: You can't ever fire an underperforming teacher.
asdff 5y ago
I don't know why so many people don't understand that educational outcomes are due to quality of life at home.

HWR_14 5y ago

> Unpopular opinion around here: teachers aren't underpaid, they are drastically overpaid given the utter lack of results they produce. Teachers tend to be paid less than an assistant manager at a Walmart. And require a master's degree. Meanwhile, if you want different results, have teacher's judged differently. Right now, they're judged based on how well the worst performers in their class do. Of course they're going to focus on bringing up the rear.

JamesBarney 5y ago
> Teachers tend to be paid less than an assistant manager at a Walmart. And require a master's degree. Teachers on average make 62k nationally, get 2 months off a year, usually have great health care, pension, and have phenomenal job security. And I know plenty of teachers without master degrees.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  (Apparently, what I responded to was edited. This was in the original, and still holds true, so I'm leaving my response as written.) > I don't think this is true when you take into account benefits such as: > healthcare, Which WalMart Asst. Managers also get. Better health care in many cases. > job security How much is a secure but low paying job worth? Besides, once you're an assistant manager, you probably have decent job security if you don't fuck up. > pension WalMart Asst. Managers get access to a 401k. It's not a pension, but it's also not subject to fuckery by elected officials. And if you quit to do something better you can take it with you. > 3 months off a year. Teachers aren't paid for their 3 months off, and tend to work unpaid overtime during the year such that it evens out to being the equivalent of a fulltime, year round job anyway.
  - JamesBarney 5y ago
    Actually teacher's work less during the school year than other professionals. https://direct.mit.edu/edfp/article/9/3/231/10191/New-Measures-of-Teachers-Work-Hours-and https://direct.mit.edu/edfp/article/9/3/231/10191/New-Measur... Teachers get paid an additional ~$35,000 in benefits if they work for the state or federal government. https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-8/teachers-job-requirements.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-8/teachers-job-requireme... I seriously doubt Walmart assistant managers are getting anywhere near that level of benefits. I can't find any data on how much Walmart pays out in benefits, but you see to be pretty familiar with how much Walmart pays so please share. > How much is a secure but low paying job worth? Besides, once you're an assistant manager, you probably have decent job security if you don't fuck up. I know a bunch of teachers and a few principals and all of them across the board have said it's impossible to be fired as a teacher after the probationary period. I don't know any assistant managers at Walmart, but I've known a few front line managers at retail chains and they were always anxious about hitting their numbers.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      > Actually teacher's work less during the school year than other professionals. Yes, they average 36 hrs/wk over the full year instead of 40 hrs/wk. 10% less time. And they're off 2 or 3 months a year. So, that lines up with my "they tend to work about the equivalent of a regular fulltime job while only getting paid for 9-10 months" statement. > I seriously doubt Walmart assistant managers are getting anywhere near that level of benefits And the majority of that is in pension benefits which assumes they work until they earn it out. It's one of those clever accounting things where since most teachers quit after < 10 years, they don't get any of those awesome benefits. > I can't find any data on how much Walmart pays out in benefits, but you see to be pretty familiar with how much Walmart pays so please share. I mean, I've just googled it. I saw that they have some 401k plans and some stock purchase plans. They seem to offer decent enough insurance (in that they cover dental and vision as well as health) but I have no idea what their copays are. In looking it up, it seems they also pay for you tuition costs, which is nice. > I know a bunch of teachers and a few principals and all of them across the board have said it's impossible to be fired as a teacher after the probationary period. Yes. It's stupidly hard to fire a teacher. But if the underlying job sucks, being secure in it is irrelevant. If teachers tend to quit, it doesn't matter how hard it is to fire them. Also, the firing or not is very state dependent. The people I know in retail always seem anxious about their numbers, but I've never heard of any of them getting fired for missing them.

SonicScrub 5y ago

I'd encourage you to flip this same thought process around. Could it not be that the low-quality results are the result of low salaries discouraging quality people from entering the profession? You get what you pay for after-all. It shouldn't be too hard to find this correlation within the Unite States where average public school teacher pay can vary as much as $40,000 state-by-state [1]. https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/which-states-have-the-highest-and-lowest-teacher-salaries/2019/04 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/which-states-have-t...

blacktriangle 5y ago
Except that, at least in my state, there is an inverse relationship between teacher salaries by district and the education results (as measured by graduation and literacy rates)

cltby 5y ago

Even more unpopular opinion: genetics is destiny, so we'll never find a systematic effect of teachers on student learning.

908B64B197 5y ago

> Unpopular opinion around here: teachers aren't underpaid, they are drastically overpaid given the utter lack of results they produce. Remember: You can't ever fire an underperforming teacher.

asdff 5y ago

I don't know why so many people don't understand that educational outcomes are due to quality of life at home.