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"Lab grown" is a marketing term that actually means "highly-processed plant-based food-like substance created in a factory". Anybody claiming that highly-proce

"Lab grown" is a marketing term that actually means "highly-processed plant-based food-like substance created in a factory". Anybody claiming that highly-processed things like this will have anything close to the same health impact and taste as, say, pasture-raised chickens (like I raise on my farm, https://mulligan.farm https://mulligan.farm) is falling into the same trap that my parents fell into when they became convinced that hydrogenated factory-produced oils were healthier than butter.

curuinor 5y ago
there's the plant-based stuff and there's the stuff that's genetically indistinguishable from meat. the plant-based stuff is available right now, the genetic meat stuff is not available for ordinary consumption because it's too expensive and there's a few material hurdles
- sjwalter 5y ago
  That argument falls apart quite quickly with just a little thought. The taste and nutritive quality of meat has many, many factors going into it, and the genes are only one tiny part. For example, the amount of omega-3s in pasture-raised chicken, and their ratio to omega-6s is far better in pasture-raised chickens than in chickens subjected to confined animal feeding operations (https://apppa.org/The-Nutrition-of-Pasture-Raised-Chicken-and-Meats https://apppa.org/The-Nutrition-of-Pasture-Raised-Chicken-an...). My chickens are of the same genetics as gross grocery store chickens, but grow more slowly, get more exercise, require zero antibiotics, have vastly different flavour and nutritive quality, than those exact same genetics raised in factory farms. The experience an animal has walking the earth--what kind of activities they engage in, what they eat, what they breath, what pharmaceuticals they're injected with--all have impact on the value of the meat. What does "lab grown" even mean in this context? Sure, it's genetically identical, but what "lab environment" produces something like grain-finished meat? Which produces 100% grassfed beef? It seems insanely simplistic to say that "we can grow this phenotype in the lab, so it'll be exactly the same as one raised in a barn or on a pasture."
  - namdnay 5y ago
    > It seems insanely simplistic to say that "we can grow this phenotype in the lab, so it'll be exactly the same as one raised in a barn or on a pasture." Why would it be exactly the same? We can probably make it better. Perfect marbling on every steak.
    - sjwalter 5y ago
      We've tried many times to make in labs and factories foods that are "better" than what Nature provides, however we've failed every single time, though we have created a number of large agribusinesses and marketing conglomerates that are really skilled at manipulating people and the political process into believing that unhealthy diets are healthy. If you're right, that would maybe be cool (but then we'd have to consider the inputs to the factories, which'd probably be GMO soybeans and corn, which means we're harming other animals in the process of producing them), but I believe your statement is full of hubris.
      - ben_w 5y ago
        There’s nothing particularly natural about the steaks, burgers, nuggets or fillets you eat: even aside the cooking (quite possibly humanity’s first invention), they are the product of many generations of selective breeding by humans, specifically to maximise value (including taste as a subset) for resource cost (including farmland and time as inputs). And then you have all of the seasoning, for example KFC’s “secret” herbs and spices are from basically all over the planet.
      - nitrogen 5y ago
        We've tried many times to make in labs and factories foods that are "better" than what Nature provides Wild nature doesn't provide very much that is edible by humans, and certainly not enough to sustain a civilization of humans rather than small bands of roving nomads. Nature doesn't care about us, it won't help us, if left to its own devices it would eventually wipe humanity out entirely. We're well, well past the point where we can rely on nature to care for itself or for us. If we don't all take the initiative to intervene and engineer nature for its and our benefit, then only those with hubris will do so. Regarding the hubris of believing that a lab-grown steak could be better than the real thing, physics doesn't change just because it's inside of an animal, so there's no reason to think that we won't eventually be able to engineer muscle tissues that are indistinguishable from real grass-fed beef, given the time and money to do so.
mikestew 5y ago
"Lab grown" is a marketing term that actually means... No, "lab grown" does not mean an Impossible Burger. You've confused the definition with something else.
void_mint 5y ago
> Anybody claiming that highly-processed things like this will have anything close to the same health impact and taste as, say, pasture-raised chickens (like I raise on my farm, https://mulligan.farm https://mulligan.farm) This reads like a person that is afraid technical advancement will make them obsolete. Your bias is probably too strong to make clear and meaningful arguments.
- sjwalter 5y ago
  This is Season 1 of my farm and we literally are turning customers away, despite our meat being ~2x more expensive than grocery store meat. I am not in the slightest bit afraid of factory/lab-grown meat supplanting my little farm. Regardless of what highly-processed stuff large agribusinesses can or will produce, there will always be a great market for humanely-raised, carefully processed animal protein. If anything, it's the Tyson and Smithfield Foods of the world that should be worried. Somehow, I don't think any of us are.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    > This is Season 1 of my farm and we literally are turning customers away, despite our meat being ~2x more expensive than grocery store meat. Congrats! > Regardless of what highly-processed stuff large agribusinesses can or will produce, there will always be a great market for humanely-raised, carefully processed animal protein. Yep! > If anything, it's the Tyson and Smithfield Foods of the world that should be worried. Somehow, I don't think any of us are. Great! This entire post didn't really negate mine though. Your post ignored huge percentages of (most of?) the categories of meat and food that would/could be replaced by lab grown food. It's like saying "My mercedes is wondeful, nobody would ever want an _electric car!_." There will always be a place for luxury items. People that eat at McDonald's aren't getting luxury items. Low wage workers that eat 4 dollar per pound chicken from Safeway aren't eating luxury items. If lab grown food can (more) ethically service lower income people with a reduced environmental impact, we should go all-in on that advancement. Your farm can and should exist as a commodity for those that want to pay for it.
    - 5y ago

curuinor 5y ago

there's the plant-based stuff and there's the stuff that's genetically indistinguishable from meat. the plant-based stuff is available right now, the genetic meat stuff is not available for ordinary consumption because it's too expensive and there's a few material hurdles

sjwalter 5y ago
That argument falls apart quite quickly with just a little thought. The taste and nutritive quality of meat has many, many factors going into it, and the genes are only one tiny part. For example, the amount of omega-3s in pasture-raised chicken, and their ratio to omega-6s is far better in pasture-raised chickens than in chickens subjected to confined animal feeding operations (https://apppa.org/The-Nutrition-of-Pasture-Raised-Chicken-and-Meats https://apppa.org/The-Nutrition-of-Pasture-Raised-Chicken-an...). My chickens are of the same genetics as gross grocery store chickens, but grow more slowly, get more exercise, require zero antibiotics, have vastly different flavour and nutritive quality, than those exact same genetics raised in factory farms. The experience an animal has walking the earth--what kind of activities they engage in, what they eat, what they breath, what pharmaceuticals they're injected with--all have impact on the value of the meat. What does "lab grown" even mean in this context? Sure, it's genetically identical, but what "lab environment" produces something like grain-finished meat? Which produces 100% grassfed beef? It seems insanely simplistic to say that "we can grow this phenotype in the lab, so it'll be exactly the same as one raised in a barn or on a pasture."
- namdnay 5y ago
  > It seems insanely simplistic to say that "we can grow this phenotype in the lab, so it'll be exactly the same as one raised in a barn or on a pasture." Why would it be exactly the same? We can probably make it better. Perfect marbling on every steak.
  - sjwalter 5y ago
    We've tried many times to make in labs and factories foods that are "better" than what Nature provides, however we've failed every single time, though we have created a number of large agribusinesses and marketing conglomerates that are really skilled at manipulating people and the political process into believing that unhealthy diets are healthy. If you're right, that would maybe be cool (but then we'd have to consider the inputs to the factories, which'd probably be GMO soybeans and corn, which means we're harming other animals in the process of producing them), but I believe your statement is full of hubris.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      There’s nothing particularly natural about the steaks, burgers, nuggets or fillets you eat: even aside the cooking (quite possibly humanity’s first invention), they are the product of many generations of selective breeding by humans, specifically to maximise value (including taste as a subset) for resource cost (including farmland and time as inputs). And then you have all of the seasoning, for example KFC’s “secret” herbs and spices are from basically all over the planet.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      We've tried many times to make in labs and factories foods that are "better" than what Nature provides Wild nature doesn't provide very much that is edible by humans, and certainly not enough to sustain a civilization of humans rather than small bands of roving nomads. Nature doesn't care about us, it won't help us, if left to its own devices it would eventually wipe humanity out entirely. We're well, well past the point where we can rely on nature to care for itself or for us. If we don't all take the initiative to intervene and engineer nature for its and our benefit, then only those with hubris will do so. Regarding the hubris of believing that a lab-grown steak could be better than the real thing, physics doesn't change just because it's inside of an animal, so there's no reason to think that we won't eventually be able to engineer muscle tissues that are indistinguishable from real grass-fed beef, given the time and money to do so.

mikestew 5y ago

"Lab grown" is a marketing term that actually means... No, "lab grown" does not mean an Impossible Burger. You've confused the definition with something else.

void_mint 5y ago

> Anybody claiming that highly-processed things like this will have anything close to the same health impact and taste as, say, pasture-raised chickens (like I raise on my farm, https://mulligan.farm https://mulligan.farm) This reads like a person that is afraid technical advancement will make them obsolete. Your bias is probably too strong to make clear and meaningful arguments.

sjwalter 5y ago
This is Season 1 of my farm and we literally are turning customers away, despite our meat being ~2x more expensive than grocery store meat. I am not in the slightest bit afraid of factory/lab-grown meat supplanting my little farm. Regardless of what highly-processed stuff large agribusinesses can or will produce, there will always be a great market for humanely-raised, carefully processed animal protein. If anything, it's the Tyson and Smithfield Foods of the world that should be worried. Somehow, I don't think any of us are.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > This is Season 1 of my farm and we literally are turning customers away, despite our meat being ~2x more expensive than grocery store meat. Congrats! > Regardless of what highly-processed stuff large agribusinesses can or will produce, there will always be a great market for humanely-raised, carefully processed animal protein. Yep! > If anything, it's the Tyson and Smithfield Foods of the world that should be worried. Somehow, I don't think any of us are. Great! This entire post didn't really negate mine though. Your post ignored huge percentages of (most of?) the categories of meat and food that would/could be replaced by lab grown food. It's like saying "My mercedes is wondeful, nobody would ever want an _electric car!_." There will always be a place for luxury items. People that eat at McDonald's aren't getting luxury items. Low wage workers that eat 4 dollar per pound chicken from Safeway aren't eating luxury items. If lab grown food can (more) ethically service lower income people with a reduced environmental impact, we should go all-in on that advancement. Your farm can and should exist as a commodity for those that want to pay for it.
  - 5y ago