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Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. Its governing board cannot have more than 4

Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. Its governing board cannot have more than 40% members of the same company. Please go to https://postgresql.fund/ https://postgresql.fund/ and read the Statutes. Actually, a "Fundación" in Spain is an entity specially scrutinized by the Ministry of Justice, and could never to anything like this. It is meant to be for the public good. Besides, this very same question could have been applied to the Core Team members that are employees of EDB and/or Crunchy, two entities that control the majority of Core. And Core is not even a non-profit, it's nothing (there's no legal entity behind). Or the PostgreSQL Association of Canada, which is an association which could definitely grant exclusive trademark use to a given entity, as it is not scrutinized by a country's Ministry, as a Fundación in Spain is.

tomnipotent 5y ago
Please don't pretend you're not doing this in bad faith. Trying to make the existing Postgres team look like the bad guys is embarrassing. You're doing this for your own profit, that much is clear.
rhaas 5y ago
The only name I can find on the "Fundación PostgreSQL" web site is yours. The PostgreSQL core team membership is listed on postgresql.org and includes 7 members from 4 different companies. I agree that perhaps the PostgreSQL core team could and should have more diversity than it does, and not just in terms of who employs them ... but an organization with only one publicly-disclosed member is not somehow better.
- ahachete 5y ago
  I agree that we need to enhance the website and give more visibility to the people behind the foundation. We will do so shortly. Yet this is public (as in the public registries). Please contact us if you want further information.
  - Jare 5y ago
    Just post the list here to get the ball rolling?
    - ahachete 5y ago
      Rubén J. Bravo, Manuel Argiz, César Calvo Pinilla, Alberto Picón and myself.
      - rhaas 5y ago
        I have been a PostgreSQL hacker since 2008 and a PostgreSQL user for many years before that. The first mention of my name in the PostgreSQL commit log is in 2003, and the first version of PostgreSQL that I used was 7.something; it couldn't drop columns yet. Now that doesn't mean that I know every person who does good work on behalf of PostgreSQL, but it does mean that I expect to recognize the names of most people who have been involved in the project to a significant degree. And the only one of those names I recognize is yours. I tried a quick Google search of each name with "site:postgresql.org" and the only one of those names that gets any hits is, again, yours. That means that, as far as Google knows, not a single one of those people has posted even a single message to any PostgreSQL mailing list ever. Needless to say, that's not close to true for any current member of the PostgreSQL core team, or a vast number of people who are not on the core team but who are involved in the project to greater or lesser extents. It is true that the PostgreSQL community is distributed, and not everything happens or is required to happen on postgresql.org. But I think it is nevertheless extremely difficult to argue that a group of people who have never posted there even once are a more legitimate group to be in charge of PostgreSQL's trademarks than the PostgreSQL core team.
        ahachete 5y ago
        Postgres is not only about code. It's a Community. Contributions are more than code. We value team membership by their abilities, and values. Those may prove better at building Community that C programming ability. Yet you are wrong when you state that Core Team holds trademarks. Core is not even a legal entity (the main mistake that I've been voicing for years; it should). Instead, there's a "loosely associated" association in Canada (PAC), with a governing board as opaque as Core, that holds the trademarks. Let's even assume this is OK. But then, PEU (https://www.postgresql.eu/ https://www.postgresql.eu/) also holds trademarks! Why? Is PEU an "official" association in any way? (if so, there should be a process and rules to become official, but there aren't). So if Core (read: PAC) is the only one who should hold the trademarks, why is not Core/PAC also suing and publicly bashing against PEU? What makes PEU special? What makes legally PEU different from other Postgres NPOs? I've been asking this question for years, including many times during this "debate" with Core/PEU/PAC about the trademarks. No answer.
petergeoghegan 5y ago
> Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. What about private individuals? Specifically, you? Quoting the charter here: https://postgresql.fund/documents/Fundacion_PostgreSQL-Statutes-EN.pdf https://postgresql.fund/documents/Fundacion_PostgreSQL-Statu...: """ Article 13. Honorary Members. ... 2. The Founder, Mr. Alvaro Carlos Hernandez Tortosa, is Honorary Life Member as the Honorary President of the Foundation, appointment that is not incompatible with any other post at the Foundation or the Patronage. He can assist the Patronage acts with voice. He doesn’t have the right to vote, unless his status of elected or founding Member of the Patronage applies. """ It goes on to say: """ Article 15. Duties of the Patronage. During its performance, the Patronage must comply with the required under current legislation and the willingness of the Founder expressed in this Statutes. """ I have to admit that this document is above my reading comprehension level. What does this actually mean?
- ahachete 5y ago
  In Spain, a Foundation is a very strong legal entity scrutinized by the Ministry of Justice. This means, among other things, that: * Every action of its board is supervised by the Ministry of Justice. * No action or change to the status can go against the initial will (which is part of the Estatutes, in particular Articles 3 and 4). Even if anyone would try to change them, they could only be done in a way that respects them. This is what is called "the founder's will". So it's a very protective non-profit, which always needs to serve the public good and the founder's wills, which are Articles 3 and 4. And there's even public supervision for this. We believed this form of a non-profit is much stronger and better to protect a Community like Postgres from potential rogue actors. As an aside, we contemplate honorary (non-voting) members. We believe is a good thing. I'd also propose the same for Core --I believe at least Bruce Momjian should be named as such.
  - petergeoghegan 5y ago
    > This is what is called "the founder's will". Just to be clear: you're saying that "the founder's will" should not be interpreted as meaning "what Alvaro Carlos Hernandez Tortosa [the founder for life] decides"?
lol768 5y ago
Can you please make your affiliation with Fundación PostgreSQL clear in both your bio and a disclaimer in the comments you write here? Thanks.
- ahachete 5y ago
  Sure. Fundación PostgreSQL co-founder and current President.
  - lsaferite 5y ago
    Don't forget 'Founder for Life'
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Once you've founded something you can't un-found it, so aren't all founders founders for life?
mattashii 5y ago
> Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. I think that it is highly dubious that a foundation that claims to be independent (from the PostgreSQL project, I suppose), with no ties to any other PostgreSQL community foundations and/or associations ("company or institution"), claims "PostgreSQL" or derivatives of the brand as its trademark. I could not find any reason to believe that the organization behind postgresql.fund is in any way affiliated with the PostgreSQL project, as I could not find it mentioned on any of the official affiliations pages (has no mailing list, events, IRC, LUG mention, nor a link in the international sites section). I repeat, I believe that postgresql.fund claiming ownership of the PostgreSQL brand (or basic derivatives thereof) in any category is highly dubious.

tomnipotent 5y ago

Please don't pretend you're not doing this in bad faith. Trying to make the existing Postgres team look like the bad guys is embarrassing. You're doing this for your own profit, that much is clear.

rhaas 5y ago

The only name I can find on the "Fundación PostgreSQL" web site is yours. The PostgreSQL core team membership is listed on postgresql.org and includes 7 members from 4 different companies. I agree that perhaps the PostgreSQL core team could and should have more diversity than it does, and not just in terms of who employs them ... but an organization with only one publicly-disclosed member is not somehow better.

ahachete 5y ago
I agree that we need to enhance the website and give more visibility to the people behind the foundation. We will do so shortly. Yet this is public (as in the public registries). Please contact us if you want further information.
- Jare 5y ago
  Just post the list here to get the ball rolling?
  - ahachete 5y ago
    Rubén J. Bravo, Manuel Argiz, César Calvo Pinilla, Alberto Picón and myself.
    - rhaas 5y ago
      I have been a PostgreSQL hacker since 2008 and a PostgreSQL user for many years before that. The first mention of my name in the PostgreSQL commit log is in 2003, and the first version of PostgreSQL that I used was 7.something; it couldn't drop columns yet. Now that doesn't mean that I know every person who does good work on behalf of PostgreSQL, but it does mean that I expect to recognize the names of most people who have been involved in the project to a significant degree. And the only one of those names I recognize is yours. I tried a quick Google search of each name with "site:postgresql.org" and the only one of those names that gets any hits is, again, yours. That means that, as far as Google knows, not a single one of those people has posted even a single message to any PostgreSQL mailing list ever. Needless to say, that's not close to true for any current member of the PostgreSQL core team, or a vast number of people who are not on the core team but who are involved in the project to greater or lesser extents. It is true that the PostgreSQL community is distributed, and not everything happens or is required to happen on postgresql.org. But I think it is nevertheless extremely difficult to argue that a group of people who have never posted there even once are a more legitimate group to be in charge of PostgreSQL's trademarks than the PostgreSQL core team.
      - ahachete 5y ago
        Postgres is not only about code. It's a Community. Contributions are more than code. We value team membership by their abilities, and values. Those may prove better at building Community that C programming ability. Yet you are wrong when you state that Core Team holds trademarks. Core is not even a legal entity (the main mistake that I've been voicing for years; it should). Instead, there's a "loosely associated" association in Canada (PAC), with a governing board as opaque as Core, that holds the trademarks. Let's even assume this is OK. But then, PEU (https://www.postgresql.eu/ https://www.postgresql.eu/) also holds trademarks! Why? Is PEU an "official" association in any way? (if so, there should be a process and rules to become official, but there aren't). So if Core (read: PAC) is the only one who should hold the trademarks, why is not Core/PAC also suing and publicly bashing against PEU? What makes PEU special? What makes legally PEU different from other Postgres NPOs? I've been asking this question for years, including many times during this "debate" with Core/PEU/PAC about the trademarks. No answer.

petergeoghegan 5y ago

> Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. What about private individuals? Specifically, you? Quoting the charter here: https://postgresql.fund/documents/Fundacion_PostgreSQL-Statutes-EN.pdf https://postgresql.fund/documents/Fundacion_PostgreSQL-Statu...: """ Article 13. Honorary Members. ... 2. The Founder, Mr. Alvaro Carlos Hernandez Tortosa, is Honorary Life Member as the Honorary President of the Foundation, appointment that is not incompatible with any other post at the Foundation or the Patronage. He can assist the Patronage acts with voice. He doesn’t have the right to vote, unless his status of elected or founding Member of the Patronage applies. """ It goes on to say: """ Article 15. Duties of the Patronage. During its performance, the Patronage must comply with the required under current legislation and the willingness of the Founder expressed in this Statutes. """ I have to admit that this document is above my reading comprehension level. What does this actually mean?

ahachete 5y ago
In Spain, a Foundation is a very strong legal entity scrutinized by the Ministry of Justice. This means, among other things, that: * Every action of its board is supervised by the Ministry of Justice. * No action or change to the status can go against the initial will (which is part of the Estatutes, in particular Articles 3 and 4). Even if anyone would try to change them, they could only be done in a way that respects them. This is what is called "the founder's will". So it's a very protective non-profit, which always needs to serve the public good and the founder's wills, which are Articles 3 and 4. And there's even public supervision for this. We believed this form of a non-profit is much stronger and better to protect a Community like Postgres from potential rogue actors. As an aside, we contemplate honorary (non-voting) members. We believe is a good thing. I'd also propose the same for Core --I believe at least Bruce Momjian should be named as such.
- petergeoghegan 5y ago
  > This is what is called "the founder's will". Just to be clear: you're saying that "the founder's will" should not be interpreted as meaning "what Alvaro Carlos Hernandez Tortosa [the founder for life] decides"?

lol768 5y ago

Can you please make your affiliation with Fundación PostgreSQL clear in both your bio and a disclaimer in the comments you write here? Thanks.

ahachete 5y ago
Sure. Fundación PostgreSQL co-founder and current President.
- lsaferite 5y ago
  Don't forget 'Founder for Life'
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Once you've founded something you can't un-found it, so aren't all founders founders for life?

mattashii 5y ago

> Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. I think that it is highly dubious that a foundation that claims to be independent (from the PostgreSQL project, I suppose), with no ties to any other PostgreSQL community foundations and/or associations ("company or institution"), claims "PostgreSQL" or derivatives of the brand as its trademark. I could not find any reason to believe that the organization behind postgresql.fund is in any way affiliated with the PostgreSQL project, as I could not find it mentioned on any of the official affiliations pages (has no mailing list, events, IRC, LUG mention, nor a link in the international sites section). I repeat, I believe that postgresql.fund claiming ownership of the PostgreSQL brand (or basic derivatives thereof) in any category is highly dubious.