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In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the rig

In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. That's not something that should be handed out lightly. That said, the current at least partially time-based requirements for naturalization in most countries probably aren't exactly perfect. The question is: How would one approach such an individually impactful decision differently and more effectively? Immigration authorities often already are unable to adequately cope with applications for naturalization as is. Further complicating matters by individually assessing if someone is likely to stay in a country probably isn't particularly helpful in that regard without a wholesale overhaul of the bureaucracy involved.

carlob 5y ago
> In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. Having the right citizenship also means you can command higher salaries for the exact same job. Some authors have called this citizenship premium or citizenship rent. To me all these seem like valid arguments against gatekeeping rather than for. In a way passports serve a similar role to what hereditary titles were until the 18th-19th century in much of the Western world, and what you're saying sounds a lot like the debates people had on newly minted barons not deserving the privileges of old blood...
hef19898 5y ago
Social Security is, more or less, tied to residency for EU-citizen across the board anyway. France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). And I think we highly over estimate the value of citizenships, after all they can be literally bought in some places.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  > France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). Indeed, and that should not be diluted by lowering the bar to "has been showing up for work for two years", which is pretty much as low as can be and, frankly, an insult to those who got it by spilled blood or outstanding service. I'm not against this program but, since it is done in relation to the pandemic, it should have been restricted to those who did exceptional things to help during that time , garbage collectors clearly haven't even if their role is essential.
Bhilai 5y ago
Most legal immigrants (non-citizens) pay taxes which in some form are used to sponsor the very social security benefits that you talk about, so why should these immigrants not receive these tangible benefits for which they have already paid for?

carlob 5y ago

> In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. Having the right citizenship also means you can command higher salaries for the exact same job. Some authors have called this citizenship premium or citizenship rent. To me all these seem like valid arguments against gatekeeping rather than for. In a way passports serve a similar role to what hereditary titles were until the 18th-19th century in much of the Western world, and what you're saying sounds a lot like the debates people had on newly minted barons not deserving the privileges of old blood...

hef19898 5y ago

Social Security is, more or less, tied to residency for EU-citizen across the board anyway. France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). And I think we highly over estimate the value of citizenships, after all they can be literally bought in some places.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
> France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). Indeed, and that should not be diluted by lowering the bar to "has been showing up for work for two years", which is pretty much as low as can be and, frankly, an insult to those who got it by spilled blood or outstanding service. I'm not against this program but, since it is done in relation to the pandemic, it should have been restricted to those who did exceptional things to help during that time , garbage collectors clearly haven't even if their role is essential.

Bhilai 5y ago

Most legal immigrants (non-citizens) pay taxes which in some form are used to sponsor the very social security benefits that you talk about, so why should these immigrants not receive these tangible benefits for which they have already paid for?