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> for garbage collectors? If these people stop showing up for a month, you'll find out just how essential these people are. If it is hard to find people to do

> for garbage collectors? If these people stop showing up for a month, you'll find out just how essential these people are. If it is hard to find people to do this domestically, then offering citizenship to attract foreign workers is a good idea.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
Both your points are red herrings. In addition, France does not offer citizenship to attract foreign workers. It has sped up the process for a few people so that the government can have its PR less than a year before elections. Again, I'm not opposed to granting citizenship outside of the normal procedure, but I think this should require having done some exceptional to deserve it. I have no problem with granting it to a law-abiding health worker who has pulled 60 hour weeks in ICU since the beginning of the pandemic, but I don't see what a garbage collector who's been doing their job normally (like everyone else) has done to deserve "a medal". Lastly, France has a high unemployment rate so I don't think there is a need to attract unskilled foreign workers. If unskilled jobs are left unfilled (and I don't have data to say they are) the issue is not workforce shortages.
- phtrivier 5y ago
  "Giving citizenship to foreigner" is definitely _not_ something that the government wants to have in the news during the election period (the election will be played, as usual, between the candidate that manages to balance fearmongering about foreigners and following the eternal french mandate of welcoming the oppressed.) So if there is a calculation, it's to do it well in advance of the campaign, so as not to have to justify themselves.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    No-one forced the government to set up this program, which is not a usual thing to do, and obviously everything is political when you're the government. They have not really done anything on immigration, it's not where they want to go, quite the opposite: "immigration is an opportunity for France" [1] and this is part of that stance. Marcon is appealing to the centre and left because I think he'd be quite happy to have another second round between him and Le Pen. It'd be closer than last time but he'd win. So ideally the best things he can do are things that make more people on the left vote for him and keep Le Pen on top on the right. This might be one of them. I also think Macron launched his campaign with his visit to Marseille, which also looked very much like an appeal to the centre and left. [1] https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Immigration-is-an-opportunity-for-France-says-President-Macron https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Immigration-is-a...
- Bayart 5y ago
  High unemployment and difficulty to find low-skill workers aren't mutually exclusive. In fact it's exactly what is going on in France.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    Indeed, but I don't think "difficulty to find low-skill workers" necessarily equals actual shortages. What I'm suggesting is that high unemployment is a sign that there are people available locally. If there are difficulties filling jobs, especially unskilled jobs, this therefore points towards problems within the employment market and benefits (which are indeed well-known for having systemic problems in France for a very long time) not 'shortages' per se. In such situation the claim that immigration is 'needed' to fill these jobs does not hold water.
mixmastamyk 5y ago
When the salary is raised, more folks will show up.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Yes, but sometimes overpaying for a service in order to provide high wages is net negative on society. Imagine trash service costing $500/mo or more. What's going to happen then? Probably people are going to stop paying for it and just illegally dump their trash. Then, even people who can pay are hurt because not only do they have to pay more for a service, but they also have to suffer the effects from people who don't use it.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

Both your points are red herrings. In addition, France does not offer citizenship to attract foreign workers. It has sped up the process for a few people so that the government can have its PR less than a year before elections. Again, I'm not opposed to granting citizenship outside of the normal procedure, but I think this should require having done some exceptional to deserve it. I have no problem with granting it to a law-abiding health worker who has pulled 60 hour weeks in ICU since the beginning of the pandemic, but I don't see what a garbage collector who's been doing their job normally (like everyone else) has done to deserve "a medal". Lastly, France has a high unemployment rate so I don't think there is a need to attract unskilled foreign workers. If unskilled jobs are left unfilled (and I don't have data to say they are) the issue is not workforce shortages.

phtrivier 5y ago
"Giving citizenship to foreigner" is definitely _not_ something that the government wants to have in the news during the election period (the election will be played, as usual, between the candidate that manages to balance fearmongering about foreigners and following the eternal french mandate of welcoming the oppressed.) So if there is a calculation, it's to do it well in advance of the campaign, so as not to have to justify themselves.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  No-one forced the government to set up this program, which is not a usual thing to do, and obviously everything is political when you're the government. They have not really done anything on immigration, it's not where they want to go, quite the opposite: "immigration is an opportunity for France" [1] and this is part of that stance. Marcon is appealing to the centre and left because I think he'd be quite happy to have another second round between him and Le Pen. It'd be closer than last time but he'd win. So ideally the best things he can do are things that make more people on the left vote for him and keep Le Pen on top on the right. This might be one of them. I also think Macron launched his campaign with his visit to Marseille, which also looked very much like an appeal to the centre and left. [1] https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Immigration-is-an-opportunity-for-France-says-President-Macron https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Immigration-is-a...
Bayart 5y ago
High unemployment and difficulty to find low-skill workers aren't mutually exclusive. In fact it's exactly what is going on in France.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Indeed, but I don't think "difficulty to find low-skill workers" necessarily equals actual shortages. What I'm suggesting is that high unemployment is a sign that there are people available locally. If there are difficulties filling jobs, especially unskilled jobs, this therefore points towards problems within the employment market and benefits (which are indeed well-known for having systemic problems in France for a very long time) not 'shortages' per se. In such situation the claim that immigration is 'needed' to fill these jobs does not hold water.

mixmastamyk 5y ago

When the salary is raised, more folks will show up.

mywittyname 5y ago
Yes, but sometimes overpaying for a service in order to provide high wages is net negative on society. Imagine trash service costing $500/mo or more. What's going to happen then? Probably people are going to stop paying for it and just illegally dump their trash. Then, even people who can pay are hurt because not only do they have to pay more for a service, but they also have to suffer the effects from people who don't use it.