5 ms·

Why all this gatekeeping around citizenship? Why is 5 years the right number and not 2? If someone is going to live in your country long term you may as well gi

Why all this gatekeeping around citizenship? Why is 5 years the right number and not 2? If someone is going to live in your country long term you may as well give them citizenship sooner so they feel fully bought in as early as possible. And France has made the calculation here that, yes, garbage collectors that worked straight through the entire pandemic are both (a) vital and (b) likely to stick around long-term at this rate, so may as well officially recognize that now.

djbebs 5y ago
Because citizenship is supposed to be an important life changing decision with massive consequences at every level. The dilution of the meaning of citizenship is a massive tragedy.
- carlob 5y ago
  No the life changing decision is to move to a new country to become a garbage collector. If you consider that the person collecting your garbage during a pandemic getting the same rights as you have by being born in the right side of the globe is a dilution of the meaning of citizenship I really don't know how to explain this to you any better.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- sophacles 5y ago
  What purpose does citizenship actually have? Why does it need to be such a huge deal, and why is it's difficulty to attain (unless you accidentally got born there) such an important aspect of it?
  - blululu 5y ago
    Accidentally got born somewhere is a very US centric perspective. Most countries do not follow Jus Soli births so this is not enough for citizenship. Citizenship is a matter belonging to a nation, past, present and future. Traditionally families have been the principle unit of human organization and citizenship acts as a generalization of the family unit to the nation as a whole. The answer to your question is pretty simple if you replace citizenship with family relations. This is perhaps changing as neoliberal ideology emphasizes individuals over families or collectives, but this is a separate matter.
    - sophacles 5y ago
      You have sort of explained "what is citizenship", complained about some random ideology, and completely failed to answer either of my questions. My country is NOT my family. My "nation" (whatever that is... a replacement for a tribe or something?) is NOT my family, nor even my extended clan. Why do I need to have "family" at a scale of millions of people, almost all of whom I will never encounter? A reminder of the still unanswered questions: Why does citizenship matter? What does any of that have to do with the difficulty of changing citizenship?
  - bserge 5y ago
    Lets you live in a place without worrying of being forced to go back home. Basically, you become a lazy local lol
  - Zababa 5y ago
    Citizenship is here to slow down the rate of change of the country/culture/population, which is something many country want (and by country I mean either the people voting, or the people in power).
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  Cool, make everyone apply for it them so that people don't get inflated ideas of their own worth just from having the good luck to be born within a jurisdiction.
mytailorisrich 5y ago
The idea is that citizenship may be granted after a person has fully settled and demonstrated that they have integrated in society, including through fluency in language and culture. I think 5 years is a fair period for this to happen and for a person to also decide that this is going their 'forever' country. If the requirements are too low then national identity no longer means anything. There can of course be exceptions but an exception should require something exceptional. > garbage collectors that worked straight through the entire pandemic Same as everyone else. The pandemic has not changed their job. Compare this with front line health workers in overcrowded ICUs who had to face "war-like" conditions for months.
- throwaway744678 5y ago
  I'm with you here, and don't understand the downvotes; I get that someone can disagree with you, but the argument seems reasonable to me, and made in good faith. Also, I'd like to point out that of lot of commenters are from the US: as a French citizen, I very much believe that, for obvious historical and cultural reasons, our conception of the citizenship (nationality) very much differ.
BjoernKW 5y ago
In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. That's not something that should be handed out lightly. That said, the current at least partially time-based requirements for naturalization in most countries probably aren't exactly perfect. The question is: How would one approach such an individually impactful decision differently and more effectively? Immigration authorities often already are unable to adequately cope with applications for naturalization as is. Further complicating matters by individually assessing if someone is likely to stay in a country probably isn't particularly helpful in that regard without a wholesale overhaul of the bureaucracy involved.
- carlob 5y ago
  > In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. Having the right citizenship also means you can command higher salaries for the exact same job. Some authors have called this citizenship premium or citizenship rent. To me all these seem like valid arguments against gatekeeping rather than for. In a way passports serve a similar role to what hereditary titles were until the 18th-19th century in much of the Western world, and what you're saying sounds a lot like the debates people had on newly minted barons not deserving the privileges of old blood...
- hef19898 5y ago
  Social Security is, more or less, tied to residency for EU-citizen across the board anyway. France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). And I think we highly over estimate the value of citizenships, after all they can be literally bought in some places.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    > France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). Indeed, and that should not be diluted by lowering the bar to "has been showing up for work for two years", which is pretty much as low as can be and, frankly, an insult to those who got it by spilled blood or outstanding service. I'm not against this program but, since it is done in relation to the pandemic, it should have been restricted to those who did exceptional things to help during that time , garbage collectors clearly haven't even if their role is essential.

djbebs 5y ago

Because citizenship is supposed to be an important life changing decision with massive consequences at every level. The dilution of the meaning of citizenship is a massive tragedy.

carlob 5y ago
No the life changing decision is to move to a new country to become a garbage collector. If you consider that the person collecting your garbage during a pandemic getting the same rights as you have by being born in the right side of the globe is a dilution of the meaning of citizenship I really don't know how to explain this to you any better.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sophacles 5y ago
What purpose does citizenship actually have? Why does it need to be such a huge deal, and why is it's difficulty to attain (unless you accidentally got born there) such an important aspect of it?
- blululu 5y ago
  Accidentally got born somewhere is a very US centric perspective. Most countries do not follow Jus Soli births so this is not enough for citizenship. Citizenship is a matter belonging to a nation, past, present and future. Traditionally families have been the principle unit of human organization and citizenship acts as a generalization of the family unit to the nation as a whole. The answer to your question is pretty simple if you replace citizenship with family relations. This is perhaps changing as neoliberal ideology emphasizes individuals over families or collectives, but this is a separate matter.
  - sophacles 5y ago
    You have sort of explained "what is citizenship", complained about some random ideology, and completely failed to answer either of my questions. My country is NOT my family. My "nation" (whatever that is... a replacement for a tribe or something?) is NOT my family, nor even my extended clan. Why do I need to have "family" at a scale of millions of people, almost all of whom I will never encounter? A reminder of the still unanswered questions: Why does citizenship matter? What does any of that have to do with the difficulty of changing citizenship?
- bserge 5y ago
  Lets you live in a place without worrying of being forced to go back home. Basically, you become a lazy local lol
- Zababa 5y ago
  Citizenship is here to slow down the rate of change of the country/culture/population, which is something many country want (and by country I mean either the people voting, or the people in power).
anigbrowl 5y ago
Cool, make everyone apply for it them so that people don't get inflated ideas of their own worth just from having the good luck to be born within a jurisdiction.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

The idea is that citizenship may be granted after a person has fully settled and demonstrated that they have integrated in society, including through fluency in language and culture. I think 5 years is a fair period for this to happen and for a person to also decide that this is going their 'forever' country. If the requirements are too low then national identity no longer means anything. There can of course be exceptions but an exception should require something exceptional. > garbage collectors that worked straight through the entire pandemic Same as everyone else. The pandemic has not changed their job. Compare this with front line health workers in overcrowded ICUs who had to face "war-like" conditions for months.

throwaway744678 5y ago
I'm with you here, and don't understand the downvotes; I get that someone can disagree with you, but the argument seems reasonable to me, and made in good faith. Also, I'd like to point out that of lot of commenters are from the US: as a French citizen, I very much believe that, for obvious historical and cultural reasons, our conception of the citizenship (nationality) very much differ.

BjoernKW 5y ago

In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. That's not something that should be handed out lightly. That said, the current at least partially time-based requirements for naturalization in most countries probably aren't exactly perfect. The question is: How would one approach such an individually impactful decision differently and more effectively? Immigration authorities often already are unable to adequately cope with applications for naturalization as is. Further complicating matters by individually assessing if someone is likely to stay in a country probably isn't particularly helpful in that regard without a wholesale overhaul of the bureaucracy involved.

carlob 5y ago
> In secular countries, citizenship often is considered to be something of almost sacred value. Citizenship also comes with very tangible benefits such as the right to vote or - in many cases - entitlement to social security benefits. Having the right citizenship also means you can command higher salaries for the exact same job. Some authors have called this citizenship premium or citizenship rent. To me all these seem like valid arguments against gatekeeping rather than for. In a way passports serve a similar role to what hereditary titles were until the 18th-19th century in much of the Western world, and what you're saying sounds a lot like the debates people had on newly minted barons not deserving the privileges of old blood...
hef19898 5y ago
Social Security is, more or less, tied to residency for EU-citizen across the board anyway. France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). And I think we highly over estimate the value of citizenships, after all they can be literally bought in some places.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  > France has a long standing tradition of granting citizenship for service to state, nation or society (he right of spilled blood, bad translation). Indeed, and that should not be diluted by lowering the bar to "has been showing up for work for two years", which is pretty much as low as can be and, frankly, an insult to those who got it by spilled blood or outstanding service. I'm not against this program but, since it is done in relation to the pandemic, it should have been restricted to those who did exceptional things to help during that time , garbage collectors clearly haven't even if their role is essential.