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The new Windows 11 defaults manager is amazingly user hostile. [1] Microsoft decided it's a great idea to make non technical users manually adjust 15 different

• syshum 5y ago
  If only we had actual Anti-Trust enforcement, because this is EXACTLY what they got wrist slapped for in the 90's
• nvrspyx 5y ago
  > More granular control is nice and all, but I don't buy for a second that it couldn't be behind some "advanced" button. In fact, they could've just kept it the same as Windows 10 because this exact system was under "Choose defaults by app", along with a "Choose defaults by protocol" option, at the bottom of the defaults apps pane. Windows 11 is a step back from more granular control considering there is no longer the option to change defaults by protocol. Instead, you need to go through multiple apps to see which protocols each app supports rather than going straight to the protocol/file type you want to change the default for.
  • warning26 5y ago
    Windows 10's version was definitely better, but it still had its own brand of sketchiness. Specifically, they had chosen a window size that placed the "default web browser" selector conveniently scrolled off the bottom. It would never be scrolled into view by default, even if the defaults control panel had been explicitly opened for the purpose of setting a default browser.
    • nvrspyx 5y ago
      Oh there were definitely dark patterns, especially if you add in the "Microsoft Edge is the recommended browser for Windows 10" or whatever was displayed when you tried to change the default browser. My only point is that, even by their own logic, it's a step backwards, which makes the stated reason seem like straight up deceit.
    • whatshisface 5y ago
      It baffles me that Microsoft cares what browser people use; Edge is based on Chromium and Edge's user count confers absolutely no authority over web standards (one of the major things Google gets from making Chromium) to Microsoft.
      • skymt 5y ago
        Edge defaults to Bing for searches, which is a direct source of revenue via ads. Edge also uses browser history for ad targeting via the "personalize your web experience" option; I don't recall whether that's enabled by default but I'd expect it is. On top of those there's a price-comparison feature (affiliate revenue) and a Pinterest partnership.
        • delusional 5y ago
          No more than a year ago the little "help" icon in explorer linked to bing with a prefilled search query that didn't even include a guard to make sure only microsoft.com results were returned (that has since been fixed). The results were (predictably) full of blog spam. Microsoft was deliberately showing blog spam, just to route users to bing. I can't understand how that's a good business model.
• xdfgh1112 5y ago
  Of course it's calculated. Try putting Chrome/Google search on a fresh install of Windows and see how many times you are one click away from being reverted back to Edge/Bing. It must be over a dozen
• DiabloD3 5y ago
  I used to share your belief, but as I got older, I realized... Windows isn't targeted to us, the faux technocratic elite that grew up with computers: it's targeted to the average person, and the average person, largely, is technologically illiterate to some degree. You cannot get file/uri associations correct in a UX in a way that handles all situations. Essentially, this is a subset of the "many to many relations in database tables fundamentally suck" problem, and every time this happens where it is directly exposed to the user it has never turned out well. Combine the potential UI/UX nightmare of this with literal actual criminals putting malware on the PCs of technologically illiterate users: it now hijacks 15 different file/uri associations in ways that are not easily fixed. What Microsoft should do? Do an Android-style ask (yes, the one that all the people like us hate) every time a new handler can be associated. What they can't do? Expressly this because it didn't exist in Win98 when they added uri handler system to the existing file handler system, and Microsoft is obsessed with backwards compat. Side note: Technically, Firefox could trigger the OTHER existing API for this that UWP apps are forced to use as per MS Store sandboxing, from the C++ WinRT API; any app could. It isn't well documented, and isn't the intended use but WinUI 3.x's path is allowing apps to piecemeal their way into the future without all-or-nothing rewrites. I'm not going to insult Mozilla by saying they "choose not to", I'd rather someone else jump in the deep end first on that. How Microsoft ended up fixing the actual issue at hand? Removing the need to get another browser in the first place, but still allowing technologically literate users to install one if they want. Edge is Chrome, but without the boneheaded decisions Google makes ruining it, and actually moving forwards in usability. Edge has vertical tabs built in, it has an actually visually correct dark theme built in[1], has the existing bookmark/history/open tab/etc syncing (which some Chromium-based browsers still do not, as they have to write their own backend), it has an Android version (many desktop Chromium browsers do not have a matching phone version), it has the beginnings of a ABP/uBlock style ad blocker built in (its already in the Android version as well) (Chrome will never ship with adblocking built in, Google's entire business model depends on their ad network), its the first Chromium-based browser that supports the VBS-based hardware-enforced browser sandbox (Microsoft wants to bring it to all Chromium-based things including Electron apps), and it also has tab collections built in (which is also supported on the Android version), and last but not least, they have an actually working PWA container on the desktop (reviving the code Google killed because they didn't want a future where Android couldn't be a vendor lock-in moat). The number of extensions I need to make Edge actually productive is less than any other browser. You know what Mozilla brought me? Panorama, which is now gone. An extension system that could actually deeply modify the UI (thanks to XUL), which is now gone (and has been replaced with a partial WebExtension implementation). A PWA-first OS, called FirefoxOS, that would be lighter and faster than Android by several magnitudes, which is now gone. An Electron alternative that used Gecko instead, called Positron, also gone. A PWA container for the desktop called Prism, also dead. Almost everything Mozilla thought of, half-assed, and then killed, Edge has succeeded, and brought to not only Windows, but OSX, Linux, and Android too, and also salvaged the slowly rotting Chromium codebase at the same time. [1]: Dark themes should never have backgrounds darker than 16, as the eye has poor "bright on dark" focusing, but most monitors, even ones being sold today, have very poor tracking of values below the limited 16-240 range (even HDR monitors); the two of those together make standard viewing conditions (dimly lit office or indirect sunlight lit room or single 60W equivalent on a desk in a small bedroom, with a 100 nits monitor (sRGB defines optimal brightness as 80 nits + offset for ambient, BT1886 defines SDR white as 100 if not otherwise calibrated, BT2020 defines SDR content in HDR display mode as 100)) hard to read for standard distance and DPI monitors (ex: 24" 1080p or 27" 1440p at ~29 inches, given a 1.2 ratio of screen size to distance) at the standard text size (16px). Dark themes that have pure black for misguided reasons should be eradicated for user accessibility reasons; contrast and readability are very important for everyone, not just people with diagnosed vision problems.
• cm2187 5y ago
  But what makes it even worse is that Microsoft overrides your choice frequently on OS updates, which means you will need to repeat all these manual steps not just for each machine, but also for each major OS update. And you can’t script it.
  • msoucy 5y ago
    Microsoft just forced all of their office suite file extensions to look at their MS Office... which I don't (shouldn't) have installed. I happily use LibreOffice. But suddenly things are going to different apps! User Friendly, as long as by "friendly" you mean "actively sabotaging"
    • alpaca128 5y ago
      That's happening on my dad's new laptop as well - he still uses his MS Office 2013 license because why not, but even after many attempts we couldn't figure out a way to make Windows open double-clicked files in that old Office. It would always pop up the newest unactivated test version. And before that it took a while until the OS even listed the programs in the start menu. MS literally fights its own software when you don't pay the annual 365 ransom.
      • luminous231 5y ago
        This was happening to me after a system restore. Uninstalling all other versions of office on my computer, then rebooting and changing the default program to Office 13 worked for me.
  • davidjade 5y ago
    I see this statement repeated often but I have never had this happen - not even once. I use Windows Pro and don’t do anything special either, I just apply Windows updates. If this is happening, I wonder why it is not happening to me.
    • kijin 5y ago
• DelightOne 5y ago
  Microsoft will never change.
• StreamBright 5y ago
  I guess it just shows how much Microsoft is user focused. The only reason why I was not using Windows was that it did not have enough user options.
• Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  It's a dark pattern, it reminds me of the cookie banner opt-out flows where they make it intentionally overly complicated. I hope the EU sues them again over this. Same with the cookie banner, by law there should be a single click 'no thanks' button.
  • jareklupinski 5y ago
    that's pretty much their MO: keep pushing the envelope until you get sued, then take 2 steps back and start again
    • hef19898 5y ago
      It would be great if they took two steps, sometimes I think they don't even tale a half step back, instead they just stop where they are for sometime.
• inter_netuser 5y ago
  Why is Firefox marketshare so low?
  • pomian 5y ago
    Maybe it is not as low as it appears. Since most of the privacy settings are the default, installs and usage isn't counted?
    • deadbunny 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure browser share is done by useragent, which will report Firefox if you're using Firefox. Unless of course you change your useragent but the number of people doing that will be vanishingly small.
      • dont__panic 5y ago
        To be fair, one of the very few add-ons available for Firefox on Android is an add-on that does exactly this on Google properties so Google won't degrade your experience for using FireFox. So maybe it is more popular than we think. Very hard to know for sure.
  • mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Android happened and combined with a popular desktop Chrome, well the rest is history.
    • tomComb 5y ago
      Not sure you can really blame android, when Android allows Firefox as a first class replacement for Chrome and with ease for the user, whereas iOS doesn't even allow the real Firefox. iOS is a very important platform for Firefox, so apples anti-competitive behavior in this regard really undermines firefox's future. I'm very sad that this issue has not come up in all of the debate about the app store.
      • 5y ago
• wibagusto 5y ago
  > we are implementing customer feedback to customize and control defaults at a more granular level Implementing customer feedback? Are they too retarded to do their job by themselves? Yeah yeah downvote my foul language—I’m sick of these slimy fucks dodging questions and obviously implementing dark patterns.
• slaymaker1907 5y ago
  On a related note, I find it really frustrating that I can't just select a default text editor. I even want to use a MS product, VS Code, but there is not really an easy way to tell Windows to use VS Code for all text files. Really what I would like is a two step association list. Be able to specify what category a particular file type is under (i.e. text file, web browser file, etc.) as well as specifying which text file or web browser should be used in general. Obviously many file types only need a direct association with an application, but that is not always the case and as is the case with text files, it may not be possible for an application installer to know all extensions it needs to associate with itself.
  • tracker1 5y ago
    I seem to remember a checkbox during install for this. Though if you use winget/chocolatey, unsure of how to do it after the fact. Though, 99% of my VS code use is launched from terminal anyway, and I can always right-click. That said, the Win11 right-click menu buries most of the options.
  • graycat 5y ago
    My solution to that problem is mostly via my favorite text editor KEDIT and some good directory tree walking via some simple Rexx scripts. So the usual way of working is to use a text window (with a nicely juiced up set of environment variables) to go to a relevant directory. Uh, several directories are fairly easy also since a command line MARK A will set environment variable MARK.A to the directory name and command G A will make that directory current, for A, B, AB, C, ABC, .... Then with a directory current, use command K to run script K.REX to run KEDIT which right away displays the directory contents and right away gives me lots of ways to edit, manipulate, select lines in the display. Then one keystroke can view a file, that is, run my KEDIT macro VIEW.KEX which is pretty smart on what program to run to process that file. I have, let's see, in my main collection of KEX macros 265 macros! That process works for essentially all my typing for any and all reasons -- email, blog posts, macro writing, code writing, TeX word processing, PDF file reading, movie watching, etc. I'm thrilled, happy as a clam, especially with the Windows file system NTFS -- not so thrilled with some other aspects of Windows.
• deadbunny 5y ago
  I recently gave a friend my old PC, I installed Windows, updated it then did a factory reset so they could go through the first run setup themselves. Watching them set the machine up and blindly agreeing to all telemetry without even blinking really opened my eyes to how much "normal" people dont care about telemetry. The great irony here is that we - technical people - have done this to ourselves. We opt out of telemetry (as we should IMO) as a default so out usage patterns never get sent to the mothership. So of course Windows gets dumbed down, options disappear, and the OS gets targeted at the normal folk. I have no horse in this race to be fair as a linux user but I do find it amusing.
  • antisthenes 5y ago
    > The great irony here is that we - technical people - have done this to ourselves. We opt out of telemetry (as we should IMO) as a default so out usage patterns never get sent to the mothership. So of course Windows gets dumbed down, options disappear, and the OS gets targeted at the normal folk. There's no irony here. Even if every single technically apt user sent their feedback to Microsoft at once, it would still be drowned out by the 99% of the general population that clicks through everything without reading or adjusting. It's not even close, and we shouldn't be giving MS the benefit of the doubt anymore, considering what they've done to Windows in the last 10 years. They did it deliberately, while hiding behind "improving user experience" and "security".
    • newsbinator 5y ago
      Heck people default to donating their organs if that’s the option that’s preset when they register for a driving license. Or the reverse if that’s the option that’s preset. It’s not even close: whatever is the default option, no matter how serious, the vast majority of people seem to shrug and get on with their day.
      • MonaroVXR 5y ago
        >Heck people default to donating their organs if that’s the option that’s preset when they register for a driving license They do in the Netherlands
• danudey 5y ago
  I appreciate the way MacOS handles these sorts of things: Applications can say "I am a browser!" and then the user can choose their preferred default from a drop-down. Also works for e-mail and FTP clients, as well as possibly others.
• facorreia 5y ago
  This is the main reason my Windows 10 PC sits unused. It keeps trying to undo my settings after every update.
• kbenson 5y ago
  What I really want is a way to tell Windows to open a different application for the file or URL type based on the application it comes from. I run a dedicated browser for work that proxies all its traffic across an SSH SOCKS proxy, and really just want clicks from Outlook and Teams to load in it, and everything else to load in Firefox. Instead, I wrote a little thing myself[1] to make a distinction based on the pattern matching the URL. I took the chance to learn a bit more about Deno and deploying standalone apps, which I don't regret, since it was actually super easy, but I still wish I didn't have to. (Note: that utility isn't quite ready to be used easily, it needs to default the config file to a more standard location for the user to be easily useful as an filetype/URL target). 1: https://github.com/kbenson/urlswitcher-deno https://github.com/kbenson/urlswitcher-deno
• omegalulw 5y ago
  > but I don't buy for a second that it couldn't be behind some "advanced" button. All you need is a single "apply to all prompt" when a user toggles for one of the extensions.
• magnetowasright 5y ago
  I thought the windows 10 defaults manager was plenty user hostile enough. It’s interesting to me that they’re doubling down on the dark patterns. It’s been effective, though, most people seem to just accept and not really question all the atrocious things win10 does, really setting the stage for whatever crap they’ll do in win11. I am so glad I no longer work at a company that uses windows (or dotnet, or their cloud platform).
• graycat 5y ago
  Long ago I gave up on letting Windows use associations. So, instead, I run programs (apps) via a script that makes the associations I want based on more than just a file extension. Windows keeps thinking that it knows where I want files for music, movies, documents, images, etc. Nope, for me it knows no such things. If Windows was correct, then I would be making only nearly trivial use of Windows. Going back to PC/DOS, I knew where I wanted files, had my own way of keeping track of files, and still do.
• account42 5y ago
  > Microsoft could perhaps look into allowing digitally signed apps to change the associations automatically (a single summarizing OS confirmation prompt might be wise), and non-signed apps would have to instruct users to manually change things. I don't think that should be acceptable until Microsoft provides a way for developer to sign their programs at no cost.
• HeavyStorm 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure 11 is my new 7. I won't be using it (well, maybe my employer will, but that's one machine out of three I use regularly), and it's pushing me towards alternatives again. Let's hope Windows 12 solves these problems, as 10 solved 8's.