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I'm surprised nobody have linked the infamous "a fractal of bad design" article yet. It's particularly popular with people who have never written a line of PHP

I'm surprised nobody have linked the infamous "a fractal of bad design" article yet. It's particularly popular with people who have never written a line of PHP in their lives.

rich_sasha 5y ago
It sure resonated with me, the occasional PHP user. Though I get that you can poke holes in anything.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  You can, but "fractal of bad design" isn't really playing that game. The naming schemes for example. It's not that PHP made a choice and any choice can be criticised, the criticism is that PHP declines to make any choice whatsoever on naming. str-foo strFoo str_foo and FooStr are all defensible choices but having all four in your language is not.
  - daneel_w 5y ago
    That doesn't make the language less capable or less suitable. That's just an irregularity, causing an itch in certain people's heads. Personal preferences and obsessive-compulsive disorders don't make good arguments.
    - tialaramex 5y ago
      > Personal preferences and obsessive-compulsive disorders don't make good arguments. And yet here you are defending PHP and indeed claiming that 'A fractal of bad design' was "particularly popular with" people who haven't written any PHP. Your poor paste is also not a good argument. It was a completely terrible language and now it's merely mediocre. And yet, it has a particular niche because among other reasons lots of cheap bulk hosts throw in PHP hosting in their default package. It's popular for the same reason all those 1980s kids learned BASIC. BASIC isn't a good programming language, but it is a programming language and there were few other choices available to them.
      - tored 5y ago
        That is a flawed argument, why? Because BASIC died, so if we follow your analogy PHP would also have died after the initial popularity and then been replaced with something better, but that hasn't happened, thus there are some unique qualities with PHP that makes it hard to replace.
      - daneel_w 5y ago
        > And yet here you are defending PHP and indeed claiming that 'A fractal of bad design' was "particularly popular with" people who haven't written any PHP. Your poor paste is also not a good argument. I claim so because the article was, and is. It's not me defending the language per se - I have no particular feelings or preferences for PHP - but just setting the record straight in the same way I'd reply to a false or incorrect statement on any other topic. I've seen more than enough unsubstantiated lamenting over PHP from people with little or no experience of the language. The article is more than anything else cited in blasé fashion by commenters who disappear after coughing up a link to the article, failing to follow up with actual solid arguments when asked why PHP would be incapable or unsuited for its tasks. I don't know what paste you are referring to. All of my comments are my own. > It was a completely terrible language and now it's merely mediocre. A terrible language is one that just can't get things done without irate jumping through hoops, but that's simply not the case of PHP. That's an objective fact, not a subjective opinion or feeling. While I don't use PHP much these days I still know the language very well, and on that technical and substantial merit I disagree.
capableweb 5y ago
Also very popular with people who do write PHP for a living. Did a quick skim again and seems a lot of the complaints are outdated by now, but probably no hope to see the author to update their rant.
- daneel_w 5y ago
  About a quarter of the article was invalid already at the time of its publishing, and another quarter was the author failing to contain their personal preferences from becoming vitriolic "arguments". But PHP does indeed still have quirks.

I'm surprised nobody have linked the infamous "a fractal of bad design" article yet. It's particularly popular with people who have never written a line of PHP in their lives.

rich_sasha 5y ago

It sure resonated with me, the occasional PHP user. Though I get that you can poke holes in anything.

tialaramex 5y ago
You can, but "fractal of bad design" isn't really playing that game. The naming schemes for example. It's not that PHP made a choice and any choice can be criticised, the criticism is that PHP declines to make any choice whatsoever on naming. str-foo strFoo str_foo and FooStr are all defensible choices but having all four in your language is not.
- daneel_w 5y ago
  That doesn't make the language less capable or less suitable. That's just an irregularity, causing an itch in certain people's heads. Personal preferences and obsessive-compulsive disorders don't make good arguments.
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    > Personal preferences and obsessive-compulsive disorders don't make good arguments. And yet here you are defending PHP and indeed claiming that 'A fractal of bad design' was "particularly popular with" people who haven't written any PHP. Your poor paste is also not a good argument. It was a completely terrible language and now it's merely mediocre. And yet, it has a particular niche because among other reasons lots of cheap bulk hosts throw in PHP hosting in their default package. It's popular for the same reason all those 1980s kids learned BASIC. BASIC isn't a good programming language, but it is a programming language and there were few other choices available to them.
    - tored 5y ago
      That is a flawed argument, why? Because BASIC died, so if we follow your analogy PHP would also have died after the initial popularity and then been replaced with something better, but that hasn't happened, thus there are some unique qualities with PHP that makes it hard to replace.
    - daneel_w 5y ago
      > And yet here you are defending PHP and indeed claiming that 'A fractal of bad design' was "particularly popular with" people who haven't written any PHP. Your poor paste is also not a good argument. I claim so because the article was, and is. It's not me defending the language per se - I have no particular feelings or preferences for PHP - but just setting the record straight in the same way I'd reply to a false or incorrect statement on any other topic. I've seen more than enough unsubstantiated lamenting over PHP from people with little or no experience of the language. The article is more than anything else cited in blasé fashion by commenters who disappear after coughing up a link to the article, failing to follow up with actual solid arguments when asked why PHP would be incapable or unsuited for its tasks. I don't know what paste you are referring to. All of my comments are my own. > It was a completely terrible language and now it's merely mediocre. A terrible language is one that just can't get things done without irate jumping through hoops, but that's simply not the case of PHP. That's an objective fact, not a subjective opinion or feeling. While I don't use PHP much these days I still know the language very well, and on that technical and substantial merit I disagree.

capableweb 5y ago

Also very popular with people who do write PHP for a living. Did a quick skim again and seems a lot of the complaints are outdated by now, but probably no hope to see the author to update their rant.

daneel_w 5y ago
About a quarter of the article was invalid already at the time of its publishing, and another quarter was the author failing to contain their personal preferences from becoming vitriolic "arguments". But PHP does indeed still have quirks.