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It is truly galling for the health system to say they have no choice but to shut down services when they have the obvious choice of rescinding the vaccine manda

It is truly galling for the health system to say they have no choice but to shut down services when they have the obvious choice of rescinding the vaccine mandate.

smt88 5y ago
If a hospital were unable to find enough nurses, should they also rescind their nursing certificate mandate? This is actually a serious question, because shortages of doctors and nurses are common in rural areas regardless of vaccine mandates. If a hospital decides that it's unethical for unvaccinated people to treat patients and can't staff up, I don't see how that's the fault of the health system. You could instead blame the decline of rural communities, anti-vaxx propaganda, poor local govt leadership, etc.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  In areas where it's hard to find vaccinated nurses, most patients probably have similar opinions on the vaccine and so won't care if their nurses were unvaccinated. The same isn't true regarding nursing certificates.
  - smt88 5y ago
    Reality is not a democracy. Something doesn't become safe because "most patients" incorrectly believe it's safe. Doctors couldn't refuse to use disinfectant, for example, even if 100% of their patients believed bacteria to be a liberal hoax. On top of that, medical professionals who do things that are unsafe or unethical can face consequences from licensing boards, insurance companies, hospital executives, and future employers. Also, the key is most patients. What about the patients who don't believe in extremist conspiracy theories? Should they be exposed to a dangerous disease because most of their community is wrong about it?
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      Your argument would hold water if the alternative to patients getting treated by unvaccinated nurses were patients getting treated by vaccinated nurses. But that's not the case here. The alternative to patients getting treated by unvaccinated nurses is patients not getting treated at all.
- armagon 5y ago
  There are all sorts of things you could blame, but saying 'we have no choice' when you do have a choice is disingenuous. As for not requiring a nursing mandate, if the need is great enough, I could see bringing nurses-in-training to work, or putting on nursing boot-camps to allow someone to do the lowest-level nursing things. I don't claim to have thought about this deeply or to really understand the ramifications, though. I also think that the nurses who say "I'm dead tired, but I need to be back tonight or your life is on the line" need to take a break anyways -- it is like in airplane videos when they say to put on your oxygen mask before you put one on someone else. ---- If we are concerned about the nurses being sick -- they are the ones who understand best what it means and how bad it can get. If we are concerned about the nurses making the populace sick, it is worth remembering that being vaccinated doesn't stop you from catching and spreading the disease.

It is truly galling for the health system to say they have no choice but to shut down services when they have the obvious choice of rescinding the vaccine mandate.

smt88 5y ago

If a hospital were unable to find enough nurses, should they also rescind their nursing certificate mandate? This is actually a serious question, because shortages of doctors and nurses are common in rural areas regardless of vaccine mandates. If a hospital decides that it's unethical for unvaccinated people to treat patients and can't staff up, I don't see how that's the fault of the health system. You could instead blame the decline of rural communities, anti-vaxx propaganda, poor local govt leadership, etc.

josephcsible 5y ago
In areas where it's hard to find vaccinated nurses, most patients probably have similar opinions on the vaccine and so won't care if their nurses were unvaccinated. The same isn't true regarding nursing certificates.
- smt88 5y ago
  Reality is not a democracy. Something doesn't become safe because "most patients" incorrectly believe it's safe. Doctors couldn't refuse to use disinfectant, for example, even if 100% of their patients believed bacteria to be a liberal hoax. On top of that, medical professionals who do things that are unsafe or unethical can face consequences from licensing boards, insurance companies, hospital executives, and future employers. Also, the key is most patients. What about the patients who don't believe in extremist conspiracy theories? Should they be exposed to a dangerous disease because most of their community is wrong about it?
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Your argument would hold water if the alternative to patients getting treated by unvaccinated nurses were patients getting treated by vaccinated nurses. But that's not the case here. The alternative to patients getting treated by unvaccinated nurses is patients not getting treated at all.
armagon 5y ago
There are all sorts of things you could blame, but saying 'we have no choice' when you do have a choice is disingenuous. As for not requiring a nursing mandate, if the need is great enough, I could see bringing nurses-in-training to work, or putting on nursing boot-camps to allow someone to do the lowest-level nursing things. I don't claim to have thought about this deeply or to really understand the ramifications, though. I also think that the nurses who say "I'm dead tired, but I need to be back tonight or your life is on the line" need to take a break anyways -- it is like in airplane videos when they say to put on your oxygen mask before you put one on someone else. ---- If we are concerned about the nurses being sick -- they are the ones who understand best what it means and how bad it can get. If we are concerned about the nurses making the populace sick, it is worth remembering that being vaccinated doesn't stop you from catching and spreading the disease.