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Moreover, it appears to be an optional way of allowing returned travellers to serve out their quarantine period at a place of their choosing rather than in a st

Moreover, it appears to be an optional way of allowing returned travellers to serve out their quarantine period at a place of their choosing rather than in a state-run, guarded, hotel room, or without regular police visits to their home. I would have thought HN would regard this as a sensible and efficient use of technology.

umvi 5y ago
> rather than in a state-run, guarded, hotel room, or without regular police visits to their home Ah yes these are totally normal things for a democratic country to do
- rossy 5y ago
  Mandatory quarantine is an absolutely reasonable thing to do during a pandemic, and it's not new. Australia did it for the Spanish flu as well.
- ephextom 5y ago
  Quarantine has been used in all kinds of societies for thousands of years during times of infectious outbreak. It’s described in the Bible, and it was used in the USA during the Spanish Flu. What is the point of quarantine without systems to ensure it is obeyed?
  - hilbert42 5y ago
    Exactly, for the life of me I cannot understand why some people just don't understand that. It's tragic really because many people have lost their lives through the bloodyminded actions of those who who've callous regard for others.
    - throwawayfear 5y ago
      Your post could word for word be used for the opposite narrative too. Many people have lost their lives through the bloodyminded actions of those clamoring for a totalitarian regime and its systems of enslavement.
      - ephextom 5y ago
        Nobody is using it for the opposite narrative. Quarantine has nothing to do with enslavement. You’re being histrionic, but also inconsistent when worrying about loss of life through totalitarianism but not loss of life through preventable illness. You’ve said elsewhere that the pandemic is not deadly enough to justify the actions we’re seeing, and I somewhat agree (population-wide lockdowns have been excessive), but hospital systems everywhere, including in Australia, have been pushed to beyond capacity. Australians can accept some limits to their freedoms to keep the medical system functioning. They won’t accept it forever, and regardless of any malicious intentions, governments can’t afford it forever.
        throwawayfear 5y ago
        You have no power over them if they choose to keep it this way forever. Especially in Australia. What are you going to do to the contrary? And how can you guarantee they won't choose to keep it this way forever? The quaranting itself is not the enslavement. It's how they are going about it and what kinds of systems they want to build.
        ephextom 5y ago
        > It's how they are going about it and what kinds of systems they want to build. You don’t seem to be well informed on how they’re going about it and what kind of systems “they” want to build. Who are “they”? Which of the multiple levels of government, several states and territories and multiple political parties who all have different policies and priorities do you mean? What do you mean by “enslavement”? None of it makes sense, and you’re making giant extrapolations from exaggerated and inaccurate headlines and reports in a media that you probably wouldn’t trust or believe on most other topics.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    Those systems will not go away once they are implemented. Power will consolidate. It is a system of enslavement.
    - ephextom 5y ago
      Whatever their intentions, governments can’t sustain these measures forever economically or politically.
      - throwawayfear 5y ago
        Yes they can. Especially in Australia where people don’t have means to defend themselves and are falling for the “vaxed vs unvaxed” narrative. Pit sides against each other and they’ll clamor for the state to protect the peace and establish order. And that it will do with increasingly invasive measures like arresting pregnant women for making anti-lockdown Facebook posts or locking residents of an entire apartment complex in their homes with no one allowed to leave. Imagine being told in 2018 this would happen a short time later - the government there arresting or locking people in that way. Would you have believed it could happen? Could you see it becoming worse, particularly if the media narrative about us-them continues until one side gets dehumanized? Why rest in this blind faith about how much they can sustain? When they have already been sustaining this stuff for going on two years with no signs of letting up. If anything it seems to be getting worse per the OP, with even more idiotic systems being built “because of the antivaxers” or whatever convenient justification is peddled by media to divide the people and consolidate power towards the top of the top. sigh I don’t want to be right. I want to be WRONG.
        ephextom 5y ago
        > Imagine being told in 2018 this would happen Every possible scenario would have been alarming. 50000 deaths and a collapsing hospital system would have been unthinkable too. Australia has chosen to avoid that nightmare, and has chosen a different, also highly undesirable but marginally preferable path. People are getting whipped up into a frenzy about all this, based on mental models of government and population relations that may apply elsewhere but don’t apply in Australia. In truth: - there is heavy pushback on government by the media and population, acceptance of lockdowns is in rapid decline, and governments are being forced to change their polices week by week. - We don’t have a heavily militarized and hostile relationship between police, military and the population, it has always been egalitarian and cohesive, like pretty much everything else in the country. - Australia has been ranked in/near the top 10 freest countries in the world for a long time, and little of what has happened during the pandemic would warrant that changing.
  - tarboreus 5y ago
    The word quarantine comes from 40 days, though. They weren't indefinite and endless.
    - jeeeb 5y ago
      Good. This isn’t either. This is for 14 days or until you test negative from COVID.
    - ephextom 5y ago
      In that context it was 40 days for each returning ship. Australia’s quarantine is only 14 days for returning travelers.
  - shirro 5y ago
    Used in the US and around the world for cholera and typhoid as well. For many years. There are a lot ruins of old quarantine facilities and several islands around New York were used for the purpose. People don't understand how isolated some states of Australia are, even from the other states. Some parts of this country were barely touched by covid. It was just about the least dystopian life you could imagine apart from driving through the Mad Max landscape.
- ehnto 5y ago
  The borders are closed so it's a choice you have made to enter the country and require quarantine, you know what you signed up for it is made abundantly clear. I think if you asked the majority of Australians they would say that they are happy people have to quarantine at the hotels and that they be guarded, since most of our outbreaks have been from quarantine breaches. So as far as a democracy goes that's right on track. Democratic doesn't mean individuals can do what they want, it means the whole community is involved in setting the rules for the community. They weren't guarded by police at the start, but non-compliance and malpractice from the regular security guards had the community complaining about having such lax security.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    So you're okay with increasingly stricter subversion of freedom, because you've consumed media fear-mongering about the pandemic. The pandemic is not deadly enough to justify building a totalitarian regime. What would have been the case if you asked the majority of Germans what they thought about certain restrictions in the 1930s? Democracy is more than the "whole community setting the rules for the community." It is the rule of law in preserving the rights to life, liberty, and justice for all people. In the form of negative rights and the freedom to live as an individual unfettered by a mob of the majority. What you are describing and proposing is mob rule that subjects the 49% or fewer to tyranny. And actually, what you're describing will subject 99.99% to tyranny because you are building a system of enslavement that will serve just the cream of the crop and crush everyone else. Say it out loud. "They should have listened and the regular security guards should have been complaint! Now we need to use military officers to patrol and enforce." Say it out loud so you can hear what you're actually saying.
    - amanzi 5y ago
      "The pandemic is not deadly enough..." I'm curious to know how many more deaths would be required, in your opinion, for it to be considered deadly enough?
      - throwawayfear 5y ago
- moistly 5y ago
  A global pandemic that overwhelms healthcare resources is not a normal thing for a country.
- shirro 5y ago
  A lot of people on the Internet aren't so much pro-democracy as anti-government. Strong competent democratic government must be a challenge to their view of the world. Personally I would prefer a competent democracy to mob rule or the dictators that inevitably follow.
throwawayfear 5y ago
Returning travelers quarantining at home will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.” https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a... Ahhhhh joy, the choice between a state-run guarded hotel room, or in-home surveillance with random pings that send the police to your house if you don't respond within 15 minutes. What a sensible and efficient use of technology!
- amanzi 5y ago
  Given the choice, I think most people would choose the app option and to isolate in the comfort of their own home.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    That is a false choice / false dilemma. "Which poison would you rather take" is not a meaningful choice. And what comfort? Facial recognition in your home? GPS tracking? RANDOM pings that send police officers to your house for an in-person quarantine check fi you don't respond within 15 minutes? Stop pretending to think about what most people would choose, and wake up to the reality staring you in the face.
    - amanzi 5y ago
      Not sure where you live, but here in NZ we have similar systems and approach to Covid as Australia. Lots of people have been calling for a system to be implemented to allow people to self-isolate at home instead of a managed isolation facility. So when I say that most people would choose the option to isolate at home, I'm not pretending to think on others' behalf - I'm basing that statement on my experiences here in NZ and in discussion with others here in NZ which is fairly similar to Australia. Having an app on your phone that lets authorities check if you're self-isolating sounds totally reasonable to me. When you've finished your two weeks isolation, you just uninstall the app and move on with your life. No big deal.

umvi 5y ago

> rather than in a state-run, guarded, hotel room, or without regular police visits to their home Ah yes these are totally normal things for a democratic country to do

rossy 5y ago
Mandatory quarantine is an absolutely reasonable thing to do during a pandemic, and it's not new. Australia did it for the Spanish flu as well.
ephextom 5y ago
Quarantine has been used in all kinds of societies for thousands of years during times of infectious outbreak. It’s described in the Bible, and it was used in the USA during the Spanish Flu. What is the point of quarantine without systems to ensure it is obeyed?
- hilbert42 5y ago
  Exactly, for the life of me I cannot understand why some people just don't understand that. It's tragic really because many people have lost their lives through the bloodyminded actions of those who who've callous regard for others.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    Your post could word for word be used for the opposite narrative too. Many people have lost their lives through the bloodyminded actions of those clamoring for a totalitarian regime and its systems of enslavement.
    - ephextom 5y ago
      Nobody is using it for the opposite narrative. Quarantine has nothing to do with enslavement. You’re being histrionic, but also inconsistent when worrying about loss of life through totalitarianism but not loss of life through preventable illness. You’ve said elsewhere that the pandemic is not deadly enough to justify the actions we’re seeing, and I somewhat agree (population-wide lockdowns have been excessive), but hospital systems everywhere, including in Australia, have been pushed to beyond capacity. Australians can accept some limits to their freedoms to keep the medical system functioning. They won’t accept it forever, and regardless of any malicious intentions, governments can’t afford it forever.
      - throwawayfear 5y ago
        You have no power over them if they choose to keep it this way forever. Especially in Australia. What are you going to do to the contrary? And how can you guarantee they won't choose to keep it this way forever? The quaranting itself is not the enslavement. It's how they are going about it and what kinds of systems they want to build.
        ephextom 5y ago
        > It's how they are going about it and what kinds of systems they want to build. You don’t seem to be well informed on how they’re going about it and what kind of systems “they” want to build. Who are “they”? Which of the multiple levels of government, several states and territories and multiple political parties who all have different policies and priorities do you mean? What do you mean by “enslavement”? None of it makes sense, and you’re making giant extrapolations from exaggerated and inaccurate headlines and reports in a media that you probably wouldn’t trust or believe on most other topics.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  Those systems will not go away once they are implemented. Power will consolidate. It is a system of enslavement.
  - ephextom 5y ago
    Whatever their intentions, governments can’t sustain these measures forever economically or politically.
    - throwawayfear 5y ago
      Yes they can. Especially in Australia where people don’t have means to defend themselves and are falling for the “vaxed vs unvaxed” narrative. Pit sides against each other and they’ll clamor for the state to protect the peace and establish order. And that it will do with increasingly invasive measures like arresting pregnant women for making anti-lockdown Facebook posts or locking residents of an entire apartment complex in their homes with no one allowed to leave. Imagine being told in 2018 this would happen a short time later - the government there arresting or locking people in that way. Would you have believed it could happen? Could you see it becoming worse, particularly if the media narrative about us-them continues until one side gets dehumanized? Why rest in this blind faith about how much they can sustain? When they have already been sustaining this stuff for going on two years with no signs of letting up. If anything it seems to be getting worse per the OP, with even more idiotic systems being built “because of the antivaxers” or whatever convenient justification is peddled by media to divide the people and consolidate power towards the top of the top. sigh I don’t want to be right. I want to be WRONG.
      - ephextom 5y ago
        > Imagine being told in 2018 this would happen Every possible scenario would have been alarming. 50000 deaths and a collapsing hospital system would have been unthinkable too. Australia has chosen to avoid that nightmare, and has chosen a different, also highly undesirable but marginally preferable path. People are getting whipped up into a frenzy about all this, based on mental models of government and population relations that may apply elsewhere but don’t apply in Australia. In truth: - there is heavy pushback on government by the media and population, acceptance of lockdowns is in rapid decline, and governments are being forced to change their polices week by week. - We don’t have a heavily militarized and hostile relationship between police, military and the population, it has always been egalitarian and cohesive, like pretty much everything else in the country. - Australia has been ranked in/near the top 10 freest countries in the world for a long time, and little of what has happened during the pandemic would warrant that changing.
- tarboreus 5y ago
  The word quarantine comes from 40 days, though. They weren't indefinite and endless.
  - jeeeb 5y ago
    Good. This isn’t either. This is for 14 days or until you test negative from COVID.
  - ephextom 5y ago
    In that context it was 40 days for each returning ship. Australia’s quarantine is only 14 days for returning travelers.
- shirro 5y ago
  Used in the US and around the world for cholera and typhoid as well. For many years. There are a lot ruins of old quarantine facilities and several islands around New York were used for the purpose. People don't understand how isolated some states of Australia are, even from the other states. Some parts of this country were barely touched by covid. It was just about the least dystopian life you could imagine apart from driving through the Mad Max landscape.
ehnto 5y ago
The borders are closed so it's a choice you have made to enter the country and require quarantine, you know what you signed up for it is made abundantly clear. I think if you asked the majority of Australians they would say that they are happy people have to quarantine at the hotels and that they be guarded, since most of our outbreaks have been from quarantine breaches. So as far as a democracy goes that's right on track. Democratic doesn't mean individuals can do what they want, it means the whole community is involved in setting the rules for the community. They weren't guarded by police at the start, but non-compliance and malpractice from the regular security guards had the community complaining about having such lax security.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  So you're okay with increasingly stricter subversion of freedom, because you've consumed media fear-mongering about the pandemic. The pandemic is not deadly enough to justify building a totalitarian regime. What would have been the case if you asked the majority of Germans what they thought about certain restrictions in the 1930s? Democracy is more than the "whole community setting the rules for the community." It is the rule of law in preserving the rights to life, liberty, and justice for all people. In the form of negative rights and the freedom to live as an individual unfettered by a mob of the majority. What you are describing and proposing is mob rule that subjects the 49% or fewer to tyranny. And actually, what you're describing will subject 99.99% to tyranny because you are building a system of enslavement that will serve just the cream of the crop and crush everyone else. Say it out loud. "They should have listened and the regular security guards should have been complaint! Now we need to use military officers to patrol and enforce." Say it out loud so you can hear what you're actually saying.
  - amanzi 5y ago
    "The pandemic is not deadly enough..." I'm curious to know how many more deaths would be required, in your opinion, for it to be considered deadly enough?
    - throwawayfear 5y ago
moistly 5y ago
A global pandemic that overwhelms healthcare resources is not a normal thing for a country.
shirro 5y ago
A lot of people on the Internet aren't so much pro-democracy as anti-government. Strong competent democratic government must be a challenge to their view of the world. Personally I would prefer a competent democracy to mob rule or the dictators that inevitably follow.

throwawayfear 5y ago

Returning travelers quarantining at home will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.” https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a... Ahhhhh joy, the choice between a state-run guarded hotel room, or in-home surveillance with random pings that send the police to your house if you don't respond within 15 minutes. What a sensible and efficient use of technology!

amanzi 5y ago
Given the choice, I think most people would choose the app option and to isolate in the comfort of their own home.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  That is a false choice / false dilemma. "Which poison would you rather take" is not a meaningful choice. And what comfort? Facial recognition in your home? GPS tracking? RANDOM pings that send police officers to your house for an in-person quarantine check fi you don't respond within 15 minutes? Stop pretending to think about what most people would choose, and wake up to the reality staring you in the face.
  - amanzi 5y ago
    Not sure where you live, but here in NZ we have similar systems and approach to Covid as Australia. Lots of people have been calling for a system to be implemented to allow people to self-isolate at home instead of a managed isolation facility. So when I say that most people would choose the option to isolate at home, I'm not pretending to think on others' behalf - I'm basing that statement on my experiences here in NZ and in discussion with others here in NZ which is fairly similar to Australia. Having an app on your phone that lets authorities check if you're self-isolating sounds totally reasonable to me. When you've finished your two weeks isolation, you just uninstall the app and move on with your life. No big deal.