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That trust will be abused. It is just a matter of time. History is full of examples. Why build this machine in the first place and then hope that whoever drives

That trust will be abused. It is just a matter of time. History is full of examples. Why build this machine in the first place and then hope that whoever drives it is nice enough to not abuse the power? Why risk it? The pandemic is not dangerous enough to justify this blind faith.

mindwok 5y ago
As for the why, I think being able to trust your government is a great thing. It has allowed us to basically eleminate guns in our society except for recreation/farming, and as a result of our lockdowns we have only 1000 deaths. We should have 45,000 if you assume the same per-capita rate as the USA. So there are benefits for this kind of faith in your Government. I think Americas emphasis on individual freedoms comes at the cost of some of these things, but there are other benefits of course and I do admire America's philosophy quite a lot. I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not sure what's better in the long run. As an Aussie though I'm happy with the trade-offs so far.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  I would love to trust a government and have it take care of everything. But unfortunately government is run by humans who are susceptible to delusions like the consolidation of power over other humans. And if it is ever run by an AI, well, that AI may decide to just destroy everyone. So while trusting a government would be great, they have not earned that and Australia's governing bodies are clearly driving off a cliff with everyone still in the car. Why trust that anymore? They're arresting people for making Facebook posts against lockdowns. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 Australia presumes to say how many people can visit your home. Source: https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-australia-how-will-they-work-and-what-will-you-need-them-for-167531 https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-... “NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian yesterday announced freedoms for fully vaccinated people once 70% of the state’s eligible population are double dosed. These include being able to go to hospitality venues, hairdressers and gyms, and have five people to your home.” They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 So what is there to trust? Where will you draw the line? And when? When it's too late, and when you have to pretend to be "happy with the trade-offs so far" because they're monitoring your posts on HN and arresting you if you are not happy with the trade-offs so far? That's not far off from how they arrested that pregnant woman for making a Facebook post. Wake up. And you celebrate that you can't defend yourself with firearms, but now you have police and military patrolling your streets to enforce these covid laws and check papers. Source: https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX Why trust this?
  - mindwok 5y ago
    Some of these I won't defend, I think the arrest for the protest post and the Melbourne Towers lockdown were not ok. Both of those have been widely criticized, including by branches of the government. I wouldn't be surprised if there's legal action from these events and I'd be in favour of the victims. The number of people in the home thing doesn't bother me, again because I'm happy to accept this as a temporary restriction that reduces deaths until our vaccination rates allow us to go back to normal life. I understand your perspective, and these events do concern me. However I personally don't see them as an authoritarian government making efforts to reduce our freedoms, I see them as a generally well-meaning government misstepping in an unprecedented situation, and I expect those missteps to be accounted for via legal action.
    - throwawayfear 5y ago
      What good is it to me or to you or to the people of Australia that the protest post arrest and the Melbourne Towers lockdown were "widely criticized?" That says nothing even if branches of government did it. That's controlled opposition at best until there's clear evidence that they're relenting from these practices. Instead I see just evidence of more power consolidation. The number of people in the home thing doesn't bother me, again because I'm happy to accept this as a temporary restriction that reduces deaths until our vaccination rates allow us to go back to normal life. It's been two years. These things are clearly not intended to be temporary. They will normalize it as much as possible. The frog boiling in the pot is an apt analogy here. I understand your perspective, and these events do concern me. However I personally don't see them as an authoritarian government making efforts to reduce our freedoms, I see them as a generally well-meaning government misstepping in an unprecedented situation, and I expect those missteps to be accounted for via legal action. What would it take you to consider that it is turning into a totalitarian regime, and that those are not missteps, but steps that were done perhaps too soon and they should've given the frog in the pot a little more time? I mean, I'm not here to waste my weekend arguing for nothing, I'm genuinely asking - what would it take for you to see that it's a bad situation? What else could Australia do that gets you thinking "we should take a step back" and will it be too late by then? I truly hope that it's a generally well-meaning government misstepping in an unprecedented situation. I truly do. Is that realistic given a study of history and the nature of Power?

mindwok 5y ago

As for the why, I think being able to trust your government is a great thing. It has allowed us to basically eleminate guns in our society except for recreation/farming, and as a result of our lockdowns we have only 1000 deaths. We should have 45,000 if you assume the same per-capita rate as the USA. So there are benefits for this kind of faith in your Government. I think Americas emphasis on individual freedoms comes at the cost of some of these things, but there are other benefits of course and I do admire America's philosophy quite a lot. I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not sure what's better in the long run. As an Aussie though I'm happy with the trade-offs so far.

throwawayfear 5y ago
I would love to trust a government and have it take care of everything. But unfortunately government is run by humans who are susceptible to delusions like the consolidation of power over other humans. And if it is ever run by an AI, well, that AI may decide to just destroy everyone. So while trusting a government would be great, they have not earned that and Australia's governing bodies are clearly driving off a cliff with everyone still in the car. Why trust that anymore? They're arresting people for making Facebook posts against lockdowns. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 Australia presumes to say how many people can visit your home. Source: https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-australia-how-will-they-work-and-what-will-you-need-them-for-167531 https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-... “NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian yesterday announced freedoms for fully vaccinated people once 70% of the state’s eligible population are double dosed. These include being able to go to hospitality venues, hairdressers and gyms, and have five people to your home.” They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 So what is there to trust? Where will you draw the line? And when? When it's too late, and when you have to pretend to be "happy with the trade-offs so far" because they're monitoring your posts on HN and arresting you if you are not happy with the trade-offs so far? That's not far off from how they arrested that pregnant woman for making a Facebook post. Wake up. And you celebrate that you can't defend yourself with firearms, but now you have police and military patrolling your streets to enforce these covid laws and check papers. Source: https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX Why trust this?
- mindwok 5y ago
  Some of these I won't defend, I think the arrest for the protest post and the Melbourne Towers lockdown were not ok. Both of those have been widely criticized, including by branches of the government. I wouldn't be surprised if there's legal action from these events and I'd be in favour of the victims. The number of people in the home thing doesn't bother me, again because I'm happy to accept this as a temporary restriction that reduces deaths until our vaccination rates allow us to go back to normal life. I understand your perspective, and these events do concern me. However I personally don't see them as an authoritarian government making efforts to reduce our freedoms, I see them as a generally well-meaning government misstepping in an unprecedented situation, and I expect those missteps to be accounted for via legal action.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    What good is it to me or to you or to the people of Australia that the protest post arrest and the Melbourne Towers lockdown were "widely criticized?" That says nothing even if branches of government did it. That's controlled opposition at best until there's clear evidence that they're relenting from these practices. Instead I see just evidence of more power consolidation. The number of people in the home thing doesn't bother me, again because I'm happy to accept this as a temporary restriction that reduces deaths until our vaccination rates allow us to go back to normal life. It's been two years. These things are clearly not intended to be temporary. They will normalize it as much as possible. The frog boiling in the pot is an apt analogy here. I understand your perspective, and these events do concern me. However I personally don't see them as an authoritarian government making efforts to reduce our freedoms, I see them as a generally well-meaning government misstepping in an unprecedented situation, and I expect those missteps to be accounted for via legal action. What would it take you to consider that it is turning into a totalitarian regime, and that those are not missteps, but steps that were done perhaps too soon and they should've given the frog in the pot a little more time? I mean, I'm not here to waste my weekend arguing for nothing, I'm genuinely asking - what would it take for you to see that it's a bad situation? What else could Australia do that gets you thinking "we should take a step back" and will it be too late by then? I truly hope that it's a generally well-meaning government misstepping in an unprecedented situation. I truly do. Is that realistic given a study of history and the nature of Power?