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So, do the people support this? Is this a failure of a democracy, or do the people really want this?

dmix 5y ago
People are naturally scared of COVID and the 'unknown', they've never experienced anything like this in their lifetime so they don't really know what the limits should be and when to say no. So it's hard to ask whether the people support it in such a state. We should be very very careful relying on crisis moments to make major decisions. Which is always going to be a drawback in democracy (all systems have flaws). There will always be long term consequences as these things never have time limits. Any new capability adopted should be assumed to be permanent.
mindwok 5y ago
I'd say that in general Australians are more trusting of their government than our American friends. I often see poeple on Twitter like Joe Rogan and friends expressing total shock about how compliant Aussies are with what seems like draconian lockdown rules, but I think that misses the point. When our government says we can only go outside for an hour a day, there's a general sentiment that this is a shame but we understand these kind of things are necessary to get a handle on the pandemic. We don't assume this is an effort from our government to exert control, and believe this is a temporary measure in our best interests. That being said, each time I read a headline like this I get slightly more concerned that if one day this trust is ever abused, it'll be all the worse because we never fought hard against these measures.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  That trust will be abused. It is just a matter of time. History is full of examples. Why build this machine in the first place and then hope that whoever drives it is nice enough to not abuse the power? Why risk it? The pandemic is not dangerous enough to justify this blind faith.
  - mindwok 5y ago
    As for the why, I think being able to trust your government is a great thing. It has allowed us to basically eleminate guns in our society except for recreation/farming, and as a result of our lockdowns we have only 1000 deaths. We should have 45,000 if you assume the same per-capita rate as the USA. So there are benefits for this kind of faith in your Government. I think Americas emphasis on individual freedoms comes at the cost of some of these things, but there are other benefits of course and I do admire America's philosophy quite a lot. I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not sure what's better in the long run. As an Aussie though I'm happy with the trade-offs so far.
    - throwawayfear 5y ago
      I would love to trust a government and have it take care of everything. But unfortunately government is run by humans who are susceptible to delusions like the consolidation of power over other humans. And if it is ever run by an AI, well, that AI may decide to just destroy everyone. So while trusting a government would be great, they have not earned that and Australia's governing bodies are clearly driving off a cliff with everyone still in the car. Why trust that anymore? They're arresting people for making Facebook posts against lockdowns. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 Australia presumes to say how many people can visit your home. Source: https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-australia-how-will-they-work-and-what-will-you-need-them-for-167531 https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-... “NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian yesterday announced freedoms for fully vaccinated people once 70% of the state’s eligible population are double dosed. These include being able to go to hospitality venues, hairdressers and gyms, and have five people to your home.” They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 So what is there to trust? Where will you draw the line? And when? When it's too late, and when you have to pretend to be "happy with the trade-offs so far" because they're monitoring your posts on HN and arresting you if you are not happy with the trade-offs so far? That's not far off from how they arrested that pregnant woman for making a Facebook post. Wake up. And you celebrate that you can't defend yourself with firearms, but now you have police and military patrolling your streets to enforce these covid laws and check papers. Source: https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX Why trust this?
shirro 5y ago
Yes, mostly they do support to varying degrees. The current SA state government has increased in popularity over their handling of the pandemic. Popularity doesn't make something right of course and there are people who disagree but I would argue it isn't a failure of democracy at least as far as local state politics go here. Covid is a fact of life elsewhere but we have no cases so to sell opening up the state to more visitors the government has to show they are able to control the transition and keep our hospitals working well. We still have comparatively low vaccination rates here as we have been supply constrained so we are going to lag behind what is happening elsewhere. In a small state like SA people care more about their own families than the rights of people to freely spread an infectious disease. A few days of enforced isolation for someone with a highly infectious disease isn't all that contentious for most people. The alternative to home detention with an app for verification would be putting them in a secure hotel which does not scale or home isolation with spot police checks which wastes a lot of resources. Things will change as we catch up on vaccination rates and see what the real health impacts are.

dmix 5y ago

People are naturally scared of COVID and the 'unknown', they've never experienced anything like this in their lifetime so they don't really know what the limits should be and when to say no. So it's hard to ask whether the people support it in such a state. We should be very very careful relying on crisis moments to make major decisions. Which is always going to be a drawback in democracy (all systems have flaws). There will always be long term consequences as these things never have time limits. Any new capability adopted should be assumed to be permanent.

mindwok 5y ago

I'd say that in general Australians are more trusting of their government than our American friends. I often see poeple on Twitter like Joe Rogan and friends expressing total shock about how compliant Aussies are with what seems like draconian lockdown rules, but I think that misses the point. When our government says we can only go outside for an hour a day, there's a general sentiment that this is a shame but we understand these kind of things are necessary to get a handle on the pandemic. We don't assume this is an effort from our government to exert control, and believe this is a temporary measure in our best interests. That being said, each time I read a headline like this I get slightly more concerned that if one day this trust is ever abused, it'll be all the worse because we never fought hard against these measures.

throwawayfear 5y ago
That trust will be abused. It is just a matter of time. History is full of examples. Why build this machine in the first place and then hope that whoever drives it is nice enough to not abuse the power? Why risk it? The pandemic is not dangerous enough to justify this blind faith.
- mindwok 5y ago
  As for the why, I think being able to trust your government is a great thing. It has allowed us to basically eleminate guns in our society except for recreation/farming, and as a result of our lockdowns we have only 1000 deaths. We should have 45,000 if you assume the same per-capita rate as the USA. So there are benefits for this kind of faith in your Government. I think Americas emphasis on individual freedoms comes at the cost of some of these things, but there are other benefits of course and I do admire America's philosophy quite a lot. I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not sure what's better in the long run. As an Aussie though I'm happy with the trade-offs so far.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    I would love to trust a government and have it take care of everything. But unfortunately government is run by humans who are susceptible to delusions like the consolidation of power over other humans. And if it is ever run by an AI, well, that AI may decide to just destroy everyone. So while trusting a government would be great, they have not earned that and Australia's governing bodies are clearly driving off a cliff with everyone still in the car. Why trust that anymore? They're arresting people for making Facebook posts against lockdowns. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824 Australia presumes to say how many people can visit your home. Source: https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-australia-how-will-they-work-and-what-will-you-need-them-for-167531 https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-... “NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian yesterday announced freedoms for fully vaccinated people once 70% of the state’s eligible population are double dosed. These include being able to go to hospitality venues, hairdressers and gyms, and have five people to your home.” They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097 So what is there to trust? Where will you draw the line? And when? When it's too late, and when you have to pretend to be "happy with the trade-offs so far" because they're monitoring your posts on HN and arresting you if you are not happy with the trade-offs so far? That's not far off from how they arrested that pregnant woman for making a Facebook post. Wake up. And you celebrate that you can't defend yourself with firearms, but now you have police and military patrolling your streets to enforce these covid laws and check papers. Source: https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idP8sX Why trust this?

shirro 5y ago

Yes, mostly they do support to varying degrees. The current SA state government has increased in popularity over their handling of the pandemic. Popularity doesn't make something right of course and there are people who disagree but I would argue it isn't a failure of democracy at least as far as local state politics go here. Covid is a fact of life elsewhere but we have no cases so to sell opening up the state to more visitors the government has to show they are able to control the transition and keep our hospitals working well. We still have comparatively low vaccination rates here as we have been supply constrained so we are going to lag behind what is happening elsewhere. In a small state like SA people care more about their own families than the rights of people to freely spread an infectious disease. A few days of enforced isolation for someone with a highly infectious disease isn't all that contentious for most people. The alternative to home detention with an app for verification would be putting them in a secure hotel which does not scale or home isolation with spot police checks which wastes a lot of resources. Things will change as we catch up on vaccination rates and see what the real health impacts are.