3 ms·

> This is the "Science is a Liar sometimes"[1] defense No, this is not "Science is a liar sometimes" defense. When we were misled about mask efficacy with a n

> This is the "Science is a Liar sometimes"[1] defense No, this is not "Science is a liar sometimes" defense. When we were misled about mask efficacy with a number of circular lies (you don't need masks, you do need masks, double mask!, cloth masks are as effective as N9ts, N95 is overkill, it is not aerosolized, etc) a good number of those were well-known lies of varying proportion, and not the scientific method in progress. The truth was that people were lying to us consciously to preserve N95 mask supply for frontline workers, but that truth would have gone much further than the mistruths and half truths we were told. At the same time as the hyperbole was spreading about covid taking over ERs and News coverage was emphasizing this fact, my surgeon wife was telling me how empty all of the hospitals were, and the on-call cases dropped to nothingness because people were isolating and not going outside. But still, the drumbeat of 24/7 news cycle kept putting out bogus info about saturation of ERs and ICUs chock full of intubated covid patients. If there has been any damage done to science by our authorities during this crisis, it is completely self-inflicted.

nemothekid 5y ago
>When we were misled about mask efficacy with a number of circular lies (you don't need masks, you do need masks, double mask!, cloth masks are as effective as N9ts, N95 is overkill, it is not aerosolized, etc) a good number of those were well-known lies of varying proportion, and not the scientific method in progress. The original consensus is that there was no need for widespread mask wearing, and a supply shock would have been dangerous. We only know now (or rather a couple months later), that advice was wrong. Again, I'm not sure how you can feel misled about the advice with regards to a novel virus. It just sounds like you are frustrated because the data wasn't 100% accurate on day one. >At the same time as the hyperbole was spreading about covid taking over ERs and News coverage was emphasizing this fact, my surgeon wife was telling me how empty all of the hospitals were, and the on-call cases dropped to nothingness because people were isolating and not going outside. But still, the drumbeat of 24/7 news cycle kept putting out bogus info about saturation of ERs and ICUs chock full of intubated covid patients. Your anecdote is not a good replacement data. Maybe your wife's hospital or experience was different but that may not reflect the hundreds of thousands of other hospitals. If you don't believe ICU reports, it could help to look at how salaries for traveling nurses have grown in the same time period. If hospitals are empty why are their salaries rising? Did hospital administrators suddenly get charitable? [1] https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/nursing/going-back-to-a-staff-job-is-just-not-an-option-high-travel-nurse-pay-worsens-shortages-across-us.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/nursing/going-back-to-...
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  > The original consensus is that there was no need for widespread mask wearing, and a supply shock would have been dangerous. We only know now (or rather a couple months later), that advice was wrong. Again, I'm not sure how you can feel misled about the advice with regards to a novel virus. It just sounds like you are frustrated because the data wasn't 100% accurate on day one. Please do not project anger or frustration. It was clearly respiratory in nature from day one, and I always thought it was bad advice intentionally given out to control supply, rather than the painful truth of "we don't have enough and we need to save it for medical workers". > Your anecdote is not a good replacement data. Maybe your wife's hospital or experience was different but that may not reflect the hundreds of thousands of other hospitals. If you don't believe ICU reports, it could help to look at how salaries for traveling nurses have grown in the same time period. If hospitals are empty why are their salaries rising? Did hospital administrators suddenly get charitable? This wasn't anecdotal, as the 4 hospital systems she supports are circulating daily covid lists, and the numbers were quite low. Because I have an interest, this data was shared with me. The CDC's own numbers for covid patients also reflect this fact [1]. A travel nurse is a poor proxy for a Covid staffing problem, since what you are probably pointing out is instead common staffing issues from school closings, and nurses prioritizing their own family over work. More recently, many nurses are resigning from covid vaccine mandates [2]. Many nurses go through advanced training in order to be able to treat specialized patients, also known as Critical Care [3]. Most travel nurses are not Critical Care / ICU / ID qualified [4] , nor experienced to work an infectious disease unit either, nor are they respiratory therapists, or Infectious Disease docs, the two medical pros most likely to be impacted by a covid outbreak. Saying a travel nurse is like a Critical Care / ICU / ID nurse, is like going to an Orthopedic surgeon to have your heart surgery, or visiting an interventional radiologist to get your ACL repaired. While both an Orthopedic surgeon and an interventional radiologist are medical doctors, they have specific residencies, fellowships, and advanced medical education that equates to thousands of hours. In this type of education for nurses, that likewise translates to a specific number of hours working in the field, learning the equipment, practices for Standard of Care. The more mid-level Critical Care certifications can be found at [5] and the graduate-level / advanced certifications at [6] Here is a useful reference I found on the transition of nursing into advanced specialties focused on Critical Care / ICU / disciplines [7] If you wanted to provide accurate data around travel nurses, you would need to pull out the small subset of travel nurses trained in Critical Care, ICU/ID, or advanced educated like Nurse Practicioners, and then expand on it. But you haven't done that, and are just conjecturing. The medical establishment has a rapidly growing body of knowledge and a huge number of specializations, to treat all the injuries, pathologies, and maladies that plague us. [1] https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html [2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/lewis-county-hospital-halts-baby-deliveries-after-mass-nurse-resignation-over-vaxx-mandate https://www.thedailybeast.com/lewis-county-hospital-halts-ba... [3] https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/nursing/list-nursing-specialties/ https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/nursing/list-nursing-speci... [4] https://www.gmercyu.edu/academics/learn/types-of-nurses https://www.gmercyu.edu/academics/learn/types-of-nurses [5] https://www.aacn.org/certification/get-certified https://www.aacn.org/certification/get-certified [6] https://www.aacn.org/certification/advanced-practice https://www.aacn.org/certification/advanced-practice [7] https://www.americannursinghistory.org/nursingspecialty-criticalcare https://www.americannursinghistory.org/nursingspecialty-crit...
mcguire 5y ago
"*When we were misled about mask efficacy with a number of circular lies..." This is false. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28201328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28201328

nemothekid 5y ago

>When we were misled about mask efficacy with a number of circular lies (you don't need masks, you do need masks, double mask!, cloth masks are as effective as N9ts, N95 is overkill, it is not aerosolized, etc) a good number of those were well-known lies of varying proportion, and not the scientific method in progress. The original consensus is that there was no need for widespread mask wearing, and a supply shock would have been dangerous. We only know now (or rather a couple months later), that advice was wrong. Again, I'm not sure how you can feel misled about the advice with regards to a novel virus. It just sounds like you are frustrated because the data wasn't 100% accurate on day one. >At the same time as the hyperbole was spreading about covid taking over ERs and News coverage was emphasizing this fact, my surgeon wife was telling me how empty all of the hospitals were, and the on-call cases dropped to nothingness because people were isolating and not going outside. But still, the drumbeat of 24/7 news cycle kept putting out bogus info about saturation of ERs and ICUs chock full of intubated covid patients. Your anecdote is not a good replacement data. Maybe your wife's hospital or experience was different but that may not reflect the hundreds of thousands of other hospitals. If you don't believe ICU reports, it could help to look at how salaries for traveling nurses have grown in the same time period. If hospitals are empty why are their salaries rising? Did hospital administrators suddenly get charitable? [1] https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/nursing/going-back-to-a-staff-job-is-just-not-an-option-high-travel-nurse-pay-worsens-shortages-across-us.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/nursing/going-back-to-...

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
> The original consensus is that there was no need for widespread mask wearing, and a supply shock would have been dangerous. We only know now (or rather a couple months later), that advice was wrong. Again, I'm not sure how you can feel misled about the advice with regards to a novel virus. It just sounds like you are frustrated because the data wasn't 100% accurate on day one. Please do not project anger or frustration. It was clearly respiratory in nature from day one, and I always thought it was bad advice intentionally given out to control supply, rather than the painful truth of "we don't have enough and we need to save it for medical workers". > Your anecdote is not a good replacement data. Maybe your wife's hospital or experience was different but that may not reflect the hundreds of thousands of other hospitals. If you don't believe ICU reports, it could help to look at how salaries for traveling nurses have grown in the same time period. If hospitals are empty why are their salaries rising? Did hospital administrators suddenly get charitable? This wasn't anecdotal, as the 4 hospital systems she supports are circulating daily covid lists, and the numbers were quite low. Because I have an interest, this data was shared with me. The CDC's own numbers for covid patients also reflect this fact [1]. A travel nurse is a poor proxy for a Covid staffing problem, since what you are probably pointing out is instead common staffing issues from school closings, and nurses prioritizing their own family over work. More recently, many nurses are resigning from covid vaccine mandates [2]. Many nurses go through advanced training in order to be able to treat specialized patients, also known as Critical Care [3]. Most travel nurses are not Critical Care / ICU / ID qualified [4] , nor experienced to work an infectious disease unit either, nor are they respiratory therapists, or Infectious Disease docs, the two medical pros most likely to be impacted by a covid outbreak. Saying a travel nurse is like a Critical Care / ICU / ID nurse, is like going to an Orthopedic surgeon to have your heart surgery, or visiting an interventional radiologist to get your ACL repaired. While both an Orthopedic surgeon and an interventional radiologist are medical doctors, they have specific residencies, fellowships, and advanced medical education that equates to thousands of hours. In this type of education for nurses, that likewise translates to a specific number of hours working in the field, learning the equipment, practices for Standard of Care. The more mid-level Critical Care certifications can be found at [5] and the graduate-level / advanced certifications at [6] Here is a useful reference I found on the transition of nursing into advanced specialties focused on Critical Care / ICU / disciplines [7] If you wanted to provide accurate data around travel nurses, you would need to pull out the small subset of travel nurses trained in Critical Care, ICU/ID, or advanced educated like Nurse Practicioners, and then expand on it. But you haven't done that, and are just conjecturing. The medical establishment has a rapidly growing body of knowledge and a huge number of specializations, to treat all the injuries, pathologies, and maladies that plague us. [1] https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html [2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/lewis-county-hospital-halts-baby-deliveries-after-mass-nurse-resignation-over-vaxx-mandate https://www.thedailybeast.com/lewis-county-hospital-halts-ba... [3] https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/nursing/list-nursing-specialties/ https://www.purdueglobal.edu/blog/nursing/list-nursing-speci... [4] https://www.gmercyu.edu/academics/learn/types-of-nurses https://www.gmercyu.edu/academics/learn/types-of-nurses [5] https://www.aacn.org/certification/get-certified https://www.aacn.org/certification/get-certified [6] https://www.aacn.org/certification/advanced-practice https://www.aacn.org/certification/advanced-practice [7] https://www.americannursinghistory.org/nursingspecialty-criticalcare https://www.americannursinghistory.org/nursingspecialty-crit...

mcguire 5y ago

"*When we were misled about mask efficacy with a number of circular lies..." This is false. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28201328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28201328