4 ms·

> have lost sight of what constitutes a normal disease burden. I don't think so. This is only "mild flu" for vaccinated people. We still have kept sight that p

> have lost sight of what constitutes a normal disease burden. I don't think so. This is only "mild flu" for vaccinated people. We still have kept sight that people who can't be vaxed can die, and people who ignorantly chose not to vax are killing people because they clog the ICUs and prevent people from getting non-covid life-saving care. So we haven't lost sight, people just choose not to see. You just can't teach some people to be unselfish and considerate.

ummonk 5y ago
The people who can’t be vaxxed have extremely low death rates. It’s possible RSV is actually a bigger danger to them than covid (and increases in youth suicides due to lockdowns appear to be higher than the number of lives saved from covid). As to ignorant people filling ICUs, that’s not a risk where I live in SF that has near universal vaccination and relatively low hospitalization rates. The UK and Denmark have demonstrated you can love on with life after high vaccination rates are achieved.
IncRnd 5y ago
> and people who ignorantly chose not to vax are killing people because they clog the ICUs and prevent people from getting non-covid life-saving care. Honest question - would you provide information for that please? The two articles I've seen on that were both completely retracted within a few days of publication. I know unvaxxed people, and I want to have all available information before conversing with them.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  The hospitals are clogged because the basic in person care is crippled by covid prevention practices. So instead of going to your pcp to deal with an ear infection or bladder infection the only place you can go is hospital as now any time you have covid like symptoms you have to get a covid test to get access to care. Similarly you can’t get care if you have a slow growing cancer or need minor surgery. All these people are going to have negative outcomes
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    They don't put people simply pending a COVID test in the ICU. Mississippi was recently down to six ICU beds in the entire state: https://www.wlbt.com/2021/08/04/just-6-icu-beds-available-entire-state-mississippi-weds-morning/ https://www.wlbt.com/2021/08/04/just-6-icu-beds-available-en... Arkansas got to zero: https://apnews.com/article/health-arkansas-coronavirus-pandemic-76b5c9eb07b489dd94209551fea74024 https://apnews.com/article/health-arkansas-coronavirus-pande... This isn't explicable with your hypothesis. You can absolutely go to your PCP for a COVID test, and get your ear infection treated while you're there.
    - rdtwo 5y ago
      Not here you can’t. They specifically ban anyone with covid like symptoms from entering which is like everything. Besides what are the outcomes for using ICUs for covid. I bet long term outcomes are pretty dismal, that might be a good time to say unless you are healthy and under 55 if you need icu it might just be your time. Rationing care is a ethical and practical thing to do.
  - Igelau 5y ago
    > The hospitals are clogged because the basic in person care is crippled by covid prevention practices. They also seem to be suffering from the labor shortage. Only secondhand anecdata from friends in the medical field, but nurses seem to be getting harder to hire and retain right now.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    Thank you, but I was asking for actual verifiable information that hospitals are getting clogged due to non-vaccinated people. I asked for two reasons. 1) That is not at all the case with the hospitals near me. 2) The recent articles I've seen make this assertion were immediately retracted due to the people they relied upon not telling the truth. So, before I speak with some of my unvaxxed friends, I wanted actual information to support, otherwise they could (correctly) say not to bring them unfounded assertions.
    - 5y ago
- JeremyNT 5y ago
  I don't know that there are documented non-COVID deaths due to it, but various parts of the southern US (where vaccination rates are low) have reported ICUs at or near capacity. E.g. https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/08/19/tennessee-icu-beds-full-most-hospitals-every-major-metro-area/8193199002/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/08/19/tenn... One has to assume that at a certain level there is a finite quantity of medical care available at a given facility, and a spike in COVID cases would deplete it. Whether or not that threshold has been crossed, and if not how close such places are to crossing it, is an interesting question.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    Thank you, but that news article seems incorrect. When I look at the hospital capacity for TN, according to the TN Dept. of Health, I see available floor beds, some available ICU beds, 62% available adult ventilators, and 1/3 available airborn infection isolation rooms. [1] [1] https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov/data/hospitalization-data/hospital-capacity.html https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov/data/hospitalization-da...
    - pdabbadabba 5y ago
      The article says that there are no ICU beds in "every major Tennessee metro area." The TDH dashboard you linked to says (today) that 4% of ICU beds are available statewide. Given that ICU bed use is almost certainly not entirely uniform statewide, and that it might be expected to be highest in metro areas, it seems entirely plausible in light of the TDH data that there are no available beds in metro areas--or at least close enough to literally zero that Tennesseans should be very worried.
      - IncRnd 5y ago
        It is somewhat worthless to pile assumptions on top of assumptions to come to conclusions. If you look at the map of Share of I.C.U. beds occupied, you can make a better, more finely grained decision. [1] The question I asked has nothing to do with whether ICU beds are occupied. However, I also will point out that you are replying to a reply to a reply to my question, none of which actually addressed what I asked. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/davidson-tennessee-covid-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/davidson-tenness...
nickthemagicman 5y ago
Can you show the data you use to make this claim about ICU's being clogged to prevent people from getting life saving care? Not news articles but the actual data you're using?

ummonk 5y ago

The people who can’t be vaxxed have extremely low death rates. It’s possible RSV is actually a bigger danger to them than covid (and increases in youth suicides due to lockdowns appear to be higher than the number of lives saved from covid). As to ignorant people filling ICUs, that’s not a risk where I live in SF that has near universal vaccination and relatively low hospitalization rates. The UK and Denmark have demonstrated you can love on with life after high vaccination rates are achieved.

IncRnd 5y ago

> and people who ignorantly chose not to vax are killing people because they clog the ICUs and prevent people from getting non-covid life-saving care. Honest question - would you provide information for that please? The two articles I've seen on that were both completely retracted within a few days of publication. I know unvaxxed people, and I want to have all available information before conversing with them.

rdtwo 5y ago
The hospitals are clogged because the basic in person care is crippled by covid prevention practices. So instead of going to your pcp to deal with an ear infection or bladder infection the only place you can go is hospital as now any time you have covid like symptoms you have to get a covid test to get access to care. Similarly you can’t get care if you have a slow growing cancer or need minor surgery. All these people are going to have negative outcomes
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  They don't put people simply pending a COVID test in the ICU. Mississippi was recently down to six ICU beds in the entire state: https://www.wlbt.com/2021/08/04/just-6-icu-beds-available-entire-state-mississippi-weds-morning/ https://www.wlbt.com/2021/08/04/just-6-icu-beds-available-en... Arkansas got to zero: https://apnews.com/article/health-arkansas-coronavirus-pandemic-76b5c9eb07b489dd94209551fea74024 https://apnews.com/article/health-arkansas-coronavirus-pande... This isn't explicable with your hypothesis. You can absolutely go to your PCP for a COVID test, and get your ear infection treated while you're there.
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    Not here you can’t. They specifically ban anyone with covid like symptoms from entering which is like everything. Besides what are the outcomes for using ICUs for covid. I bet long term outcomes are pretty dismal, that might be a good time to say unless you are healthy and under 55 if you need icu it might just be your time. Rationing care is a ethical and practical thing to do.
- Igelau 5y ago
  > The hospitals are clogged because the basic in person care is crippled by covid prevention practices. They also seem to be suffering from the labor shortage. Only secondhand anecdata from friends in the medical field, but nurses seem to be getting harder to hire and retain right now.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  Thank you, but I was asking for actual verifiable information that hospitals are getting clogged due to non-vaccinated people. I asked for two reasons. 1) That is not at all the case with the hospitals near me. 2) The recent articles I've seen make this assertion were immediately retracted due to the people they relied upon not telling the truth. So, before I speak with some of my unvaxxed friends, I wanted actual information to support, otherwise they could (correctly) say not to bring them unfounded assertions.
  - 5y ago
JeremyNT 5y ago
I don't know that there are documented non-COVID deaths due to it, but various parts of the southern US (where vaccination rates are low) have reported ICUs at or near capacity. E.g. https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/08/19/tennessee-icu-beds-full-most-hospitals-every-major-metro-area/8193199002/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/08/19/tenn... One has to assume that at a certain level there is a finite quantity of medical care available at a given facility, and a spike in COVID cases would deplete it. Whether or not that threshold has been crossed, and if not how close such places are to crossing it, is an interesting question.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  Thank you, but that news article seems incorrect. When I look at the hospital capacity for TN, according to the TN Dept. of Health, I see available floor beds, some available ICU beds, 62% available adult ventilators, and 1/3 available airborn infection isolation rooms. [1] [1] https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov/data/hospitalization-data/hospital-capacity.html https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov/data/hospitalization-da...
  - pdabbadabba 5y ago
    The article says that there are no ICU beds in "every major Tennessee metro area." The TDH dashboard you linked to says (today) that 4% of ICU beds are available statewide. Given that ICU bed use is almost certainly not entirely uniform statewide, and that it might be expected to be highest in metro areas, it seems entirely plausible in light of the TDH data that there are no available beds in metro areas--or at least close enough to literally zero that Tennesseans should be very worried.
    - IncRnd 5y ago
      It is somewhat worthless to pile assumptions on top of assumptions to come to conclusions. If you look at the map of Share of I.C.U. beds occupied, you can make a better, more finely grained decision. [1] The question I asked has nothing to do with whether ICU beds are occupied. However, I also will point out that you are replying to a reply to a reply to my question, none of which actually addressed what I asked. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/davidson-tennessee-covid-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/davidson-tenness...

nickthemagicman 5y ago

Can you show the data you use to make this claim about ICU's being clogged to prevent people from getting life saving care? Not news articles but the actual data you're using?