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It was hit by north tower collapse then fire raged on for many hours as sprinkler system had failed etc. I think structurally it still shouldn’t have collapsed

It was hit by north tower collapse then fire raged on for many hours as sprinkler system had failed etc. I think structurally it still shouldn’t have collapsed but it doesn’t require a grand conspiracy to explain the failure here.

mistermann 5y ago
It may if you want your explanation to be correct though. And technically, a grand conspiracy is subjective, and a bit of a false dichotomy. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence The complexity of the problem is such that it is extremely difficult to not make a cognitive error during contemplation, even leaving aside the famous unreliability of the multiple systems this cognition sits on top of. Think of how hard it can sometimes be to debug a system for which you have the literal source code for, which sits on a highly trustworthy base. Now consider reality, for which you have no source code, but you do know (at least during certain mental states, but not necessarily all) that it is chock full of bugs, indeterminate behaviors, etc.
- dilyevsky 5y ago
  A lot of $10 words to say “I don’t know anything so i choose to believe lizard people did it”
  - mistermann 5y ago
    Here you are not distinguishing between your perception of (or, rhetorical misinterpretation of) the ideas within my words, and the actual ideas themselves (as you also do with the events of that day). I wonder which one it is (maybe a little of both?).
danielschonfeld 5y ago
Except that two people who were in that building, both claim a stairwell exploded under their feet before the towers came down. Not that the towers coming down should have anything to do with an explosion inside WTC7 but regardless, something exploded inside corroborated by the only two people who got out of that building. So something something grand conspiracy... Also symmetric free falling, from a fire? Has fire become opinionated and decided to consume a steel scraper equally at all floors on all sides of a building all at once?
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  >Also symmetric free falling, from a fire? Has fire become opinionated and decided to consume a steel scraper equally at all floors on all sides of a building Yes, by way of having a hollow center (aka, the elevators) and dumping large quantities of jet fuel down it, essentially becoming massive chimneys. There are some awful survivor stories you can find about hearing people stuck in the elevators and getting cooked alive.
  - danielschonfeld 5y ago
    what jet fuel? no airplane hit WTC7 and to add to that, i believe NIST used the term "regular office fires" (... brought down building 7...) in their presentation.
    - anonAndOn 5y ago
      IIUC, WTC7 just needed a long burn on floors 5-7 to weaken the weight transfer trusses. Once those give, you've got 30+ floors on their way down.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  > Also symmetric free falling, from a fire? Gravity is symmetric. Once fire weakens multiple individual structural members, collapse is both inevitable and rapid as the loads transfer within the materials to the remaining supports at the speed of sound.
  - danielschonfeld 5y ago
    You're assuming the fire would burn all the columns at the same rate at the same time, that's not what empirically is seen at other building fires. For reference please google Grenfell Tower Fire. Or in China, the Mandarin Oriental Hotel Fire. For gravity to be symmetric such that free fall speed is achieved by the whole building at once at the same time (start of collapse), all the columns would have to suffer the exact same fire made damage at the same exact time. I don't know about you, but i have yet to see nature produce exact results at the same exact time anywhere. Gradual, slow and chaotic describes nature better. Fast, precise and calculated usually is the realm of human beings.

mistermann 5y ago

It may if you want your explanation to be correct though. And technically, a grand conspiracy is subjective, and a bit of a false dichotomy. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence The complexity of the problem is such that it is extremely difficult to not make a cognitive error during contemplation, even leaving aside the famous unreliability of the multiple systems this cognition sits on top of. Think of how hard it can sometimes be to debug a system for which you have the literal source code for, which sits on a highly trustworthy base. Now consider reality, for which you have no source code, but you do know (at least during certain mental states, but not necessarily all) that it is chock full of bugs, indeterminate behaviors, etc.

dilyevsky 5y ago
A lot of $10 words to say “I don’t know anything so i choose to believe lizard people did it”
- mistermann 5y ago
  Here you are not distinguishing between your perception of (or, rhetorical misinterpretation of) the ideas within my words, and the actual ideas themselves (as you also do with the events of that day). I wonder which one it is (maybe a little of both?).

danielschonfeld 5y ago

Except that two people who were in that building, both claim a stairwell exploded under their feet before the towers came down. Not that the towers coming down should have anything to do with an explosion inside WTC7 but regardless, something exploded inside corroborated by the only two people who got out of that building. So something something grand conspiracy... Also symmetric free falling, from a fire? Has fire become opinionated and decided to consume a steel scraper equally at all floors on all sides of a building all at once?

anonAndOn 5y ago
>Also symmetric free falling, from a fire? Has fire become opinionated and decided to consume a steel scraper equally at all floors on all sides of a building Yes, by way of having a hollow center (aka, the elevators) and dumping large quantities of jet fuel down it, essentially becoming massive chimneys. There are some awful survivor stories you can find about hearing people stuck in the elevators and getting cooked alive.
- danielschonfeld 5y ago
  what jet fuel? no airplane hit WTC7 and to add to that, i believe NIST used the term "regular office fires" (... brought down building 7...) in their presentation.
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    IIUC, WTC7 just needed a long burn on floors 5-7 to weaken the weight transfer trusses. Once those give, you've got 30+ floors on their way down.
jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
> Also symmetric free falling, from a fire? Gravity is symmetric. Once fire weakens multiple individual structural members, collapse is both inevitable and rapid as the loads transfer within the materials to the remaining supports at the speed of sound.
- danielschonfeld 5y ago
  You're assuming the fire would burn all the columns at the same rate at the same time, that's not what empirically is seen at other building fires. For reference please google Grenfell Tower Fire. Or in China, the Mandarin Oriental Hotel Fire. For gravity to be symmetric such that free fall speed is achieved by the whole building at once at the same time (start of collapse), all the columns would have to suffer the exact same fire made damage at the same exact time. I don't know about you, but i have yet to see nature produce exact results at the same exact time anywhere. Gradual, slow and chaotic describes nature better. Fast, precise and calculated usually is the realm of human beings.