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Genuine question: what’s the constitutional difference between the mandate for children to be vaccinated in order to attend school (which I presume has continue

Genuine question: what’s the constitutional difference between the mandate for children to be vaccinated in order to attend school (which I presume has continued even with a shift to far more remote schooling), and the new presidential mandate?

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
If I understand correctly, the school vaccine mandate didn't come from the federal government. It comes from local school boards. Foolish me, I expect the Federal government to operate within the limits of the US Constitution. I see it already beyond those, and I resent and oppose every additional step it tries to take further outside those limits. But maybe I'm just rationalizing the difference...
- dundarious 5y ago
  I live the US but did not go through the US school system — it was truly a genuine and sincere question. It does appear to be a state or even more local requirement, which is definitely different. > Foolish me, I expect the Federal government to operate within the limits of the US Constitution. Now agreed, it’s different from the school mandate(s), but I still don’t yet understand this derisive leap to claims of unconstitutionality. OSHA legislation is broad in the responsibilities of employers, and one can make an argument (the quality of which I won’t inflate) that executive orders can be used to enforce that in this way. Certainly it seems to track with the frankly enormous executive power that the last 4 presidents, current included, have made ample use of. At least that executive power is mostly time-limited, given term limits. And at least in theory, questions of bodily autonomy seem to have been side-stepped with the “or test weekly” provision, however impractical that may be for many.
SnowProblem 5y ago
States are in charge of vaccination requirements for children. This needs to be a state issue, so that people can move, unless you want civil war.
throwawaysea 5y ago
There probably isn’t a constitutional difference, but it depends on whether you care about the original text of the constitution or the precedence set by prior SCOTUS cases. Jacobson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) set a precedent that the state (meaning government in general and not just a state-level government) has some powers that supersede individual liberty, including vaccination to protect public health, and this precedence has been used to force collectivist decision making in other situations as well. However the ninth amendment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_...) explicitly gives individuals all liberties not discussed by the constitution and would therefore suggest that individual liberty is supreme even in the case of bodily autonomy. Leaving that debate aside however, I think it’s important to recognize that the US is built on federalism. It is less of a unified monolithic nation and more of a diverse set of nations that share a small set of common services like the military. Over time the federal government has become bloated and powerful, and has been erasing the locality of choice that state and local jurisdictions are supposed to provide. This leads to situations like the national vaccine mandate, where a narrow majority can implement a tyranny over the rest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority), when the system is meant to allow greater local liberty and independence over such choices. If this type of governance continues I expect as some point the US will break up.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

If I understand correctly, the school vaccine mandate didn't come from the federal government. It comes from local school boards. Foolish me, I expect the Federal government to operate within the limits of the US Constitution. I see it already beyond those, and I resent and oppose every additional step it tries to take further outside those limits. But maybe I'm just rationalizing the difference...

dundarious 5y ago
I live the US but did not go through the US school system — it was truly a genuine and sincere question. It does appear to be a state or even more local requirement, which is definitely different. > Foolish me, I expect the Federal government to operate within the limits of the US Constitution. Now agreed, it’s different from the school mandate(s), but I still don’t yet understand this derisive leap to claims of unconstitutionality. OSHA legislation is broad in the responsibilities of employers, and one can make an argument (the quality of which I won’t inflate) that executive orders can be used to enforce that in this way. Certainly it seems to track with the frankly enormous executive power that the last 4 presidents, current included, have made ample use of. At least that executive power is mostly time-limited, given term limits. And at least in theory, questions of bodily autonomy seem to have been side-stepped with the “or test weekly” provision, however impractical that may be for many.

SnowProblem 5y ago

States are in charge of vaccination requirements for children. This needs to be a state issue, so that people can move, unless you want civil war.

throwawaysea 5y ago

There probably isn’t a constitutional difference, but it depends on whether you care about the original text of the constitution or the precedence set by prior SCOTUS cases. Jacobson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) set a precedent that the state (meaning government in general and not just a state-level government) has some powers that supersede individual liberty, including vaccination to protect public health, and this precedence has been used to force collectivist decision making in other situations as well. However the ninth amendment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_...) explicitly gives individuals all liberties not discussed by the constitution and would therefore suggest that individual liberty is supreme even in the case of bodily autonomy. Leaving that debate aside however, I think it’s important to recognize that the US is built on federalism. It is less of a unified monolithic nation and more of a diverse set of nations that share a small set of common services like the military. Over time the federal government has become bloated and powerful, and has been erasing the locality of choice that state and local jurisdictions are supposed to provide. This leads to situations like the national vaccine mandate, where a narrow majority can implement a tyranny over the rest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority), when the system is meant to allow greater local liberty and independence over such choices. If this type of governance continues I expect as some point the US will break up.