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I've had many conversations with people with anxiety. I think you're attributing more intentionality than existed here. Scared people make stupid choices.

burkaman 5y ago
I've been scared before, but I've never tortured someone and imprisoned them for 20 years on a hunch.
- afarrell 5y ago
  Have you ever been in a position where you had either the power or the responsibility to imprison someone?
  - burkaman 5y ago
    No I haven't, I was illustrating the absurdity of being so frightened by 9/11 that 4 years later you make the "stupid decision" of ordering your subordinates to torture prisoners. Note also that the people in charge of Guantanamo didn't have the power or responsibility to torture anyone, but they did it anyway. Remember that the people making decisions about looking for a certain watch or using torture are not scared soldiers in Afghanistan, they're career officers and politicians who face no personal risk.
    - afarrell 5y ago
      Okay, you've successfully illustrated that it is absurd. That only shows it would be out-of-place in a work of fiction. However, we are talking about reality. Which is more realistic: 1. People twirling their moustaches and intentionally deciding to lie to give themselves a supply of prisoners to torture to the benefit of... 2. People deceiving themselves into justifying a course of action because they are scared and their self-image as a stalwart protector is under threat.
      - burkaman 5y ago
        Obviously number 1, do you really need me to lay out the history of documented intentional lies for you? The logic is "torture might not work, but I don't give a shit about these people so there's no downside, and it'll give the guards a way to relieve some stress." Or "yeah the watch isn't good evidence, but all these people are guilty of something, right? I mean they're all Muslim, they all hate us, it doesn't matter which ones we arrest or kill". You're right that part of it is protecting an image, but that's driven by career ambition and social pressure, not fear. And you're right that they deceive themselves to justify their actions, but again it's not fear driven, it's just the natural "I'm not a bad person" mental protections that we all have all the time. They tell themselves the prisoners deserve it, or that anyone in their position would do the same, or that they're just following orders.
- Mary-Jane 5y ago
  What's your position on vaccines? There's all kinds of stupid decisions being made on both ends of the debate right now, most influenced by fear...
pessimizer 5y ago
I get frustrated when I hear people discussing national economies like household economies, but here you're talking about a hegemonic nation-state like it's a fearful child.

burkaman 5y ago

I've been scared before, but I've never tortured someone and imprisoned them for 20 years on a hunch.

afarrell 5y ago
Have you ever been in a position where you had either the power or the responsibility to imprison someone?
- burkaman 5y ago
  No I haven't, I was illustrating the absurdity of being so frightened by 9/11 that 4 years later you make the "stupid decision" of ordering your subordinates to torture prisoners. Note also that the people in charge of Guantanamo didn't have the power or responsibility to torture anyone, but they did it anyway. Remember that the people making decisions about looking for a certain watch or using torture are not scared soldiers in Afghanistan, they're career officers and politicians who face no personal risk.
  - afarrell 5y ago
    Okay, you've successfully illustrated that it is absurd. That only shows it would be out-of-place in a work of fiction. However, we are talking about reality. Which is more realistic: 1. People twirling their moustaches and intentionally deciding to lie to give themselves a supply of prisoners to torture to the benefit of... 2. People deceiving themselves into justifying a course of action because they are scared and their self-image as a stalwart protector is under threat.
    - burkaman 5y ago
      Obviously number 1, do you really need me to lay out the history of documented intentional lies for you? The logic is "torture might not work, but I don't give a shit about these people so there's no downside, and it'll give the guards a way to relieve some stress." Or "yeah the watch isn't good evidence, but all these people are guilty of something, right? I mean they're all Muslim, they all hate us, it doesn't matter which ones we arrest or kill". You're right that part of it is protecting an image, but that's driven by career ambition and social pressure, not fear. And you're right that they deceive themselves to justify their actions, but again it's not fear driven, it's just the natural "I'm not a bad person" mental protections that we all have all the time. They tell themselves the prisoners deserve it, or that anyone in their position would do the same, or that they're just following orders.
Mary-Jane 5y ago
What's your position on vaccines? There's all kinds of stupid decisions being made on both ends of the debate right now, most influenced by fear...

pessimizer 5y ago

I get frustrated when I hear people discussing national economies like household economies, but here you're talking about a hegemonic nation-state like it's a fearful child.