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What a crap. Secure boot is a straw man for "locked down" phone. In this view it is insecure to be free to use any software you like. And this article on a hack

What a crap. Secure boot is a straw man for "locked down" phone. In this view it is insecure to be free to use any software you like. And this article on a hacker site. BS.

gruez 5y ago
>In this view it is insecure to be free to use any software you like. How is this "BS"? If you can replace the software to whatever you like, so can the baddies. Readers of a "hacker site" (you do realize the "hacker" in hn refers to hackathons rather than bad guys breaking into servers?) might accept this trade-off, but it still means it's less secure
- realusername 5y ago
  > How is this "BS"? If you can replace the software to whatever you like, so can the baddies. And how are we confident that the ROM preinstalled is itself secure? Nobody can assert that and the owner is even prevented to check it. The most common security threat aren't coming from the trusted boot but play services blobs & manufacturer blobs, all behind the so-called trusted boot.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >And how are we confident that the ROM preinstalled is itself secure? And what about your linux phone's rom? Do they have reproducible builds yet? Sure, it might be open source, but did anyone audit the millions of line of code to make sure it's actually backdoor/bug free? Moreover, HN readers might actually understand this stuff, but what about non-technical people? They're probably better off using a locked down phone with OEM ROM (you already have to trust the OEM) than with a locked down phone that can possibly be replaced with malicious firmware. >The most common security threat aren't coming from the trusted boot but play services blobs & manufacturer blobs source?
    - realusername 5y ago
      I'm not even talking about reproducible builds, pre-installed phone ROMs are one step below that, there's no "builds". You just have no idea at all what's in it, there's not even a simple list available of what's in it... Here's a reminder that there's not a single android phone on the planet which runs AOSP. > They're probably better off using a locked down phone with OEM ROM (you already have to trust the OEM) than with a locked down phone that can possibly be replaced with malicious firmware. I don't think so, unless OEM are going to increase their standards, a thirdparty ROM will always be better since they can be reviewed and have at least a list of what's in there. That's a very low bar indeed but preinstalled ROMs have such low standards, that makes it better. > source? Which source? They aren't publishing any. Those services blobs have full permission to do whatever they want. They update in the background, can escape the sandbox, send device data home...
      - gruez 5y ago
        >You just have no idea at all what's in it, there's not even a simple list available of what's in it... What can you meaningfully do with this information? >Here's a reminder that there's not a single android phone on the planet which runs AOSP. Again, for the people who don't care about running a full FOSS stack, why does it matter? >a thirdparty ROM will always be better since they can be reviewed You mean how on lineageos, most devices have a grand total of two maintainers? >That's a very low bar indeed but preinstalled ROMs have such low standards, that makes it better. motorola and google puts out mostly vanilla android on their phones. >>>The most common security threat aren't coming from the trusted boot but play services blobs & manufacturer blobs >> source? >Which source? You're being obtuse here. "source?" in this context obviously refers to me asking you for evidence for your claim you made.
        realusername 5y ago
        > What can you meaningfully do with this information? Check the security of my device and my data? It would help build a trust with my device. Until that happens, phones are at best toys and not real computers you can trust. > Again, for the people who don't care about running a full FOSS stack, why does it matter? It's not about FOSS but basic freedom & security here. > You mean how on lineageos, most devices have a grand total of two maintainers? As opposed to preinstalled roms which have exactly zero external people reviewing them. Yes, the standards are THAT low. > motorola and google puts out mostly vanilla android on their phones. No they don't. Some people are trying to replicate the ROMs for other phones (like https://download.pixelexperience.org/ https://download.pixelexperience.org/ ) but that's some community effort. There's nothing vanilla about motorola or google phones. > You're being obtuse here. "source?" in this context obviously refers to me asking you for evidence for your claim you made. Why though? Even Android admits it, just go into Settings > Security and Settings > Account and look the amount of stuff that they say runs in the background. That's only what they want to admit though, who really knows what it's doing.
- lvass 5y ago
  >If you can replace the software to whatever you like, so can the baddies What are you talking about? A "baddie" can grab my phone, replace my OS, and I won't even notice? How does he know my encryption passphrase to set it back? Or he would insert malicious software into a powered-off encrypted block device?
  - gruez 5y ago
    >What are you talking about? A "baddie" can grab my phone, replace my OS, and I won't even notice? Is that so hard to believe when you consider that you're unconscious 8 hours a day? Even when you're awake I don't imagine it's too hard to find some time where you're separated from your phone. >How does he know my encryption passphrase to set it back? Or he would insert malicious software into a powered-off encrypted block device? He inserts malicious software into the bootloader, which can't be encrypted. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit#Bootkits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit#Bootkits
    - lvass 5y ago
      >Is that so hard to believe Yes. It's virtually impossible with the physical security measures I employ. Also, if someone did that, my phone would either be left off/prompting encryption passphase - which would be incredibly suspicious, or prompting the screen unlock code, which I could safely insert, realize the phone was tampered, re-install my system and use a different screen lock password having given no useful information, even if the attacker was sophisticated enough to emulate my wallpaper. In the comically-absurd case you still need to protect yourself against that, having a separate device with /boot in a safe location is simple.
      - gruez 5y ago
        >Yes. It's virtually impossible with the physical security measures I employ Do you live in a bunker or something? I'm interested in knowing what types of security measures you employ that protects your phone when you're unconscious for 8 hours. Moreover, the fact that you can adopt such security measures doesn't mean everyone else can or is willing to, and they'd rather have a technological solution. This is especially true if they're not the type of person to compile and flash their own ROMs. >Also, if someone did that, my phone would either be left off/prompting encryption passphase - which would be incredibly suspicious, Phones shut off all the time. It doesn't seem too implausible to fake an excuse, eg. 1. battery ran out 2. the power button was held too long (from being in an awkward position in your pocket?), forcing a reboot 3. flaky software crashing/hanging > re-install my system How can you trust the system was actually reinstalled? Do you disassemble your phone and flash the chips with your computer? >having a separate device with /boot in a safe location is simple. 1. that doesn't actually fix the problem, just moves it around 2. I know of exactly zero phones that can boot off a removable device.
foxfluff 5y ago
Secure boot doesn't preclude using any software you like.
- tommek4077 5y ago
  Apps and Javascript websites are not the only software you could run on hardware.
  - gruez 5y ago
    I think he means that most secureboot implementations (ie. PC, since phones don't adhere to the secureboot standard), you can replace the microsoft keys with your keys.
    - tommek4077 5y ago
      How generous from Microsoft, that they might allow me to use my hardware. That they didn't build or rent out to me. But that was manufactured somewhere else and sold to me. Maybe next time I ask my plumber if I may decide by myself what kind of toilet paper I use.
- 13of40 5y ago
  Secure boot is a prerequisite for having a walled garden. It was never an answer to the question of how to prevent rootkits from persisting by hooking into the boot process, because that was never a widespread problem. It's an answer to the question of how we can make sure we get 10¢ every time someone sells a $1.50 download of Angry Potato Fiends. Maybe, in some cases, there's a concession where the end user can drill down into some third-tier menu and press up-down-left-right-triangle-square to set the device in "developer mode" so they can run what they like, but that's nowhere near the same as it just being free.

What a crap. Secure boot is a straw man for "locked down" phone. In this view it is insecure to be free to use any software you like. And this article on a hacker site. BS.

gruez 5y ago

>In this view it is insecure to be free to use any software you like. How is this "BS"? If you can replace the software to whatever you like, so can the baddies. Readers of a "hacker site" (you do realize the "hacker" in hn refers to hackathons rather than bad guys breaking into servers?) might accept this trade-off, but it still means it's less secure

realusername 5y ago
> How is this "BS"? If you can replace the software to whatever you like, so can the baddies. And how are we confident that the ROM preinstalled is itself secure? Nobody can assert that and the owner is even prevented to check it. The most common security threat aren't coming from the trusted boot but play services blobs & manufacturer blobs, all behind the so-called trusted boot.
- gruez 5y ago
  >And how are we confident that the ROM preinstalled is itself secure? And what about your linux phone's rom? Do they have reproducible builds yet? Sure, it might be open source, but did anyone audit the millions of line of code to make sure it's actually backdoor/bug free? Moreover, HN readers might actually understand this stuff, but what about non-technical people? They're probably better off using a locked down phone with OEM ROM (you already have to trust the OEM) than with a locked down phone that can possibly be replaced with malicious firmware. >The most common security threat aren't coming from the trusted boot but play services blobs & manufacturer blobs source?
  - realusername 5y ago
    I'm not even talking about reproducible builds, pre-installed phone ROMs are one step below that, there's no "builds". You just have no idea at all what's in it, there's not even a simple list available of what's in it... Here's a reminder that there's not a single android phone on the planet which runs AOSP. > They're probably better off using a locked down phone with OEM ROM (you already have to trust the OEM) than with a locked down phone that can possibly be replaced with malicious firmware. I don't think so, unless OEM are going to increase their standards, a thirdparty ROM will always be better since they can be reviewed and have at least a list of what's in there. That's a very low bar indeed but preinstalled ROMs have such low standards, that makes it better. > source? Which source? They aren't publishing any. Those services blobs have full permission to do whatever they want. They update in the background, can escape the sandbox, send device data home...
    - gruez 5y ago
      >You just have no idea at all what's in it, there's not even a simple list available of what's in it... What can you meaningfully do with this information? >Here's a reminder that there's not a single android phone on the planet which runs AOSP. Again, for the people who don't care about running a full FOSS stack, why does it matter? >a thirdparty ROM will always be better since they can be reviewed You mean how on lineageos, most devices have a grand total of two maintainers? >That's a very low bar indeed but preinstalled ROMs have such low standards, that makes it better. motorola and google puts out mostly vanilla android on their phones. >>>The most common security threat aren't coming from the trusted boot but play services blobs & manufacturer blobs >> source? >Which source? You're being obtuse here. "source?" in this context obviously refers to me asking you for evidence for your claim you made.
      - realusername 5y ago
        > What can you meaningfully do with this information? Check the security of my device and my data? It would help build a trust with my device. Until that happens, phones are at best toys and not real computers you can trust. > Again, for the people who don't care about running a full FOSS stack, why does it matter? It's not about FOSS but basic freedom & security here. > You mean how on lineageos, most devices have a grand total of two maintainers? As opposed to preinstalled roms which have exactly zero external people reviewing them. Yes, the standards are THAT low. > motorola and google puts out mostly vanilla android on their phones. No they don't. Some people are trying to replicate the ROMs for other phones (like https://download.pixelexperience.org/ https://download.pixelexperience.org/ ) but that's some community effort. There's nothing vanilla about motorola or google phones. > You're being obtuse here. "source?" in this context obviously refers to me asking you for evidence for your claim you made. Why though? Even Android admits it, just go into Settings > Security and Settings > Account and look the amount of stuff that they say runs in the background. That's only what they want to admit though, who really knows what it's doing.
lvass 5y ago
>If you can replace the software to whatever you like, so can the baddies What are you talking about? A "baddie" can grab my phone, replace my OS, and I won't even notice? How does he know my encryption passphrase to set it back? Or he would insert malicious software into a powered-off encrypted block device?
- gruez 5y ago
  >What are you talking about? A "baddie" can grab my phone, replace my OS, and I won't even notice? Is that so hard to believe when you consider that you're unconscious 8 hours a day? Even when you're awake I don't imagine it's too hard to find some time where you're separated from your phone. >How does he know my encryption passphrase to set it back? Or he would insert malicious software into a powered-off encrypted block device? He inserts malicious software into the bootloader, which can't be encrypted. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit#Bootkits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit#Bootkits
  - lvass 5y ago
    >Is that so hard to believe Yes. It's virtually impossible with the physical security measures I employ. Also, if someone did that, my phone would either be left off/prompting encryption passphase - which would be incredibly suspicious, or prompting the screen unlock code, which I could safely insert, realize the phone was tampered, re-install my system and use a different screen lock password having given no useful information, even if the attacker was sophisticated enough to emulate my wallpaper. In the comically-absurd case you still need to protect yourself against that, having a separate device with /boot in a safe location is simple.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >Yes. It's virtually impossible with the physical security measures I employ Do you live in a bunker or something? I'm interested in knowing what types of security measures you employ that protects your phone when you're unconscious for 8 hours. Moreover, the fact that you can adopt such security measures doesn't mean everyone else can or is willing to, and they'd rather have a technological solution. This is especially true if they're not the type of person to compile and flash their own ROMs. >Also, if someone did that, my phone would either be left off/prompting encryption passphase - which would be incredibly suspicious, Phones shut off all the time. It doesn't seem too implausible to fake an excuse, eg. 1. battery ran out 2. the power button was held too long (from being in an awkward position in your pocket?), forcing a reboot 3. flaky software crashing/hanging > re-install my system How can you trust the system was actually reinstalled? Do you disassemble your phone and flash the chips with your computer? >having a separate device with /boot in a safe location is simple. 1. that doesn't actually fix the problem, just moves it around 2. I know of exactly zero phones that can boot off a removable device.

foxfluff 5y ago

Secure boot doesn't preclude using any software you like.

tommek4077 5y ago
Apps and Javascript websites are not the only software you could run on hardware.
- gruez 5y ago
  I think he means that most secureboot implementations (ie. PC, since phones don't adhere to the secureboot standard), you can replace the microsoft keys with your keys.
  - tommek4077 5y ago
    How generous from Microsoft, that they might allow me to use my hardware. That they didn't build or rent out to me. But that was manufactured somewhere else and sold to me. Maybe next time I ask my plumber if I may decide by myself what kind of toilet paper I use.
13of40 5y ago
Secure boot is a prerequisite for having a walled garden. It was never an answer to the question of how to prevent rootkits from persisting by hooking into the boot process, because that was never a widespread problem. It's an answer to the question of how we can make sure we get 10¢ every time someone sells a $1.50 download of Angry Potato Fiends. Maybe, in some cases, there's a concession where the end user can drill down into some third-tier menu and press up-down-left-right-triangle-square to set the device in "developer mode" so they can run what they like, but that's nowhere near the same as it just being free.