5 ms·

> I just learned from a colleague and it was confirmed by every student I asked, that 25% of students age 16-32 take Adderall 1-7X/week (not prescribed). And 5-

> I just learned from a colleague and it was confirmed by every student I asked, that 25% of students age 16-32 take Adderall 1-7X/week (not prescribed). And 5-10% do the same w/Modafinil or Armodafanil; 30-35% of students are on amphetamine Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. Source is seemingly "anecdata." And this was posted on Twitter. Probably not much to see here other than some outrage for attention.

snvzz 5y ago
>Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. Yeah, it isn't. It's a nootropic like caffeine. Similar effects, lasts longer, doesn't create a dependence. It's arguably better than caffeine, and I can understand its use. Amphetamine being popular like that is, however, insanity.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  It lasts too long for me. I would take it early in the morning, and I'd still be wired at 2am the following night, unable to sleep. Made it unusable.
  - mckirk 5y ago
    Did you have the experience with Modafinil or Armodafinil? Armoda is meant to last longer; probably too long for some people to take regularly. It's also more anxiety-inducing, so despite being the 'older' variant, moda might be the better choice for a lot of people.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      I don't remember, it was years ago. The brand was "Modalert", so whatever they put in that. It also gave me a low-grade headache, dry mouth, grinding my teeth, and my pee stank of sulphur. Wouldn't recommend.
      - BrianOnHN 5y ago
        Try drinking an adequate amount of water, everyday, as it solves the dehydration[1] you're experiencing. [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dehydration/symptoms-causes/syc-20354086 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dehydration/s...
  - snvzz 5y ago
    I'm not exactly promoting its use. Just saying I can understand. I use plain old coffee/tea. I do hear that some people are super sensitive to modafinil, and that these people often divide a standard pill in 4 slices and take just one such slice. I did try it in the past and, as far as I can tell, I am one of these people (took 1/4 from the very start, and yet so strong). It was very good at helping with being awake (and not sleepy) and making it slightly easier to focus. But it also had this annoying "higher threshold for finger movement" that absolutely killed automatic finger movement and thus playing rhythm games (deresute/mirishita/sif/...)
- dragonelite 5y ago
  Tried it once took half pills effect was quite nice imho just to check it out. half a pill was good for like 6 hours of concentrated/focused work.
- cowpig 5y ago
  Isn't the definition of a nootropic a drug taken for the purposes of cognitive enhancement? So adderall is both an amephetamine and a nootropic?
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Amphetamine being popular like that is, however, insanity. Wait until you learn about all the people that smoke and/or drink alcohol!
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  Dependence no, diminishing returns yes. Modafonil is not a toy. It can ramp anxiety and paranoia through the roof.
- ac29 5y ago
  > Amphetamine being popular like that is, however, insanity. Why? Amphetamine is arguably better than caffeine as well, and serves a similar purpose. Thats obviously somewhat subjective, though.
kongin 5y ago
>Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. The last time I went on a modafinil bender I didn't sleep for a week and ended that with a 12 hour masturbation session involving a lot of blood. That's not really that much different to what happened the one time I did meth, apart from there being a lot less violence. Modafinil should be way more regulated than it is.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  > I didn't sleep for a week lies
  - mlboss 5y ago
    I was also not able to sleep properly after taking modafinil. Which in turns affected my concentration. In my opinion, the best drug is good sleep and less stress.
    - jvanderbot 5y ago
      Your story is hard to believe, but your conclusion is correct. Sleep, exercise, caffeine and theanine (mild nootropics) are the best supported performance enhancing drugs for intellectual work. Modafonil is good for alertness when you cannot sleep, but doesn't really help with the 'good mania' unless your main blocker is mental exhaustion.
      - joveian 5y ago
        It should be very easy to believe considering the half life of R-modafinil is 15 hours (armodafinil and half of regular modafinil). Even a single dose could cause sleep disruption for multiple days and longer if the initial disruption leads to circadian disruption. But it is interesting that both somnolence and insomnia seem to be in the "very common" category (1-10%) of side effects. Sleep disorder is in the "uncommon" (.1-1%) category, which is quite a few people developing sleep disorders taking modafinil. https://www.drugs.com/sfx/modafinil-side-effects.html https://www.drugs.com/sfx/modafinil-side-effects.html
    - 5y ago
Kydlaw 5y ago
> Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. That's not what he said. The different responses he gave to the questions asked on his tweet are actually interesting, you might have a look.
- gwern 5y ago
  "25%" + "5-10%" = "30-35%".
wheelinsupial 5y ago
It does sound like the post is talking about anecdata, but there have been some studies looking at prescription drug usage in students: 2018: https://cssl.osu.edu/documents/cpds-key-findings-2018.pdf https://cssl.osu.edu/documents/cpds-key-findings-2018.pdf 2015: https://cssl.osu.edu/posts/632320bc-704d-4eef-8bcb-87c83019f2e9/documents/cpds-key-findings-report-2015.pdf https://cssl.osu.edu/posts/632320bc-704d-4eef-8bcb-87c83019f... Sure, there is still some issues with the methodology since it's a self-reported internet survey. Data I'll report below is formatted as 2015/2018. 18.6% / 15.9% of respondents admitted to misusing stimulants for non-medical reasons, 84.9% / 79.2% of stimulant users reported using it to study or improve grades. Consequence of use: 63% / 60% of stimulant users reported "Experienced a positive impact on your academics as a result of your use" What follows was only reported in 2018: When are you most likely to misuse prescription drugs to study? 76% answered during finals or exams, 53% Before a test or project, 38% When I feel behind, 17% When I want to get ahead, 6% When I need a competitive edge, 8% Continuously throughout the term. When did you start misusing prescription drugs to study? Undergrads n = 1,399: 29% Before college, 38% first year, 21% second year, 10% third year, 3% fourth year or later. Grads / professional students n = 381: 10% Before college, 73% during college, 3% between grad college and grad school, 8% first year of grad / prof, 6% second year of grad/prof or later. The 2015 study reports: Actual versus Perceived Use Among CPDS Student Respondents - Stimulants Undergrads Actual: 18.6% Perceived: 33.6% Grads Actual: 6.8% Perceived: 24.2% We can use that to potentially assess the reported anecdata. > Probably not much to see here other than some outrage for attention. I think it depends. If the research quoted in [1] is correct, then taking these drugs either has no effect, or it only benefits low-performers. So, if it's only benefiting low-performers, then it needs to be determined if these low-performers are turned into high-performers, and, if so, does this mean typical high-performers without additional enhancements are losing out to those who are enhanced? I suppose it's more an ethical / moral value judgement than anything else. As they say in American sports: if you're not cheating, you're not competing. [1] https://www.altamirarecovery.com/blog/adderall-addiction-amongst-california-tech-workers-requires-intensive-treatment/ https://www.altamirarecovery.com/blog/adderall-addiction-amo...

snvzz 5y ago

>Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. Yeah, it isn't. It's a nootropic like caffeine. Similar effects, lasts longer, doesn't create a dependence. It's arguably better than caffeine, and I can understand its use. Amphetamine being popular like that is, however, insanity.

_dain_ 5y ago
It lasts too long for me. I would take it early in the morning, and I'd still be wired at 2am the following night, unable to sleep. Made it unusable.
- mckirk 5y ago
  Did you have the experience with Modafinil or Armodafinil? Armoda is meant to last longer; probably too long for some people to take regularly. It's also more anxiety-inducing, so despite being the 'older' variant, moda might be the better choice for a lot of people.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    I don't remember, it was years ago. The brand was "Modalert", so whatever they put in that. It also gave me a low-grade headache, dry mouth, grinding my teeth, and my pee stank of sulphur. Wouldn't recommend.
    - BrianOnHN 5y ago
      Try drinking an adequate amount of water, everyday, as it solves the dehydration[1] you're experiencing. [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dehydration/symptoms-causes/syc-20354086 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dehydration/s...
- snvzz 5y ago
  I'm not exactly promoting its use. Just saying I can understand. I use plain old coffee/tea. I do hear that some people are super sensitive to modafinil, and that these people often divide a standard pill in 4 slices and take just one such slice. I did try it in the past and, as far as I can tell, I am one of these people (took 1/4 from the very start, and yet so strong). It was very good at helping with being awake (and not sleepy) and making it slightly easier to focus. But it also had this annoying "higher threshold for finger movement" that absolutely killed automatic finger movement and thus playing rhythm games (deresute/mirishita/sif/...)
dragonelite 5y ago
Tried it once took half pills effect was quite nice imho just to check it out. half a pill was good for like 6 hours of concentrated/focused work.
cowpig 5y ago
Isn't the definition of a nootropic a drug taken for the purposes of cognitive enhancement? So adderall is both an amephetamine and a nootropic?
Zababa 5y ago
> Amphetamine being popular like that is, however, insanity. Wait until you learn about all the people that smoke and/or drink alcohol!
jvanderbot 5y ago
Dependence no, diminishing returns yes. Modafonil is not a toy. It can ramp anxiety and paranoia through the roof.
ac29 5y ago
> Amphetamine being popular like that is, however, insanity. Why? Amphetamine is arguably better than caffeine as well, and serves a similar purpose. Thats obviously somewhat subjective, though.

kongin 5y ago

>Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. The last time I went on a modafinil bender I didn't sleep for a week and ended that with a 12 hour masturbation session involving a lot of blood. That's not really that much different to what happened the one time I did meth, apart from there being a lot less violence. Modafinil should be way more regulated than it is.

mistrial9 5y ago
> I didn't sleep for a week lies
- mlboss 5y ago
  I was also not able to sleep properly after taking modafinil. Which in turns affected my concentration. In my opinion, the best drug is good sleep and less stress.
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    Your story is hard to believe, but your conclusion is correct. Sleep, exercise, caffeine and theanine (mild nootropics) are the best supported performance enhancing drugs for intellectual work. Modafonil is good for alertness when you cannot sleep, but doesn't really help with the 'good mania' unless your main blocker is mental exhaustion.
    - joveian 5y ago
      It should be very easy to believe considering the half life of R-modafinil is 15 hours (armodafinil and half of regular modafinil). Even a single dose could cause sleep disruption for multiple days and longer if the initial disruption leads to circadian disruption. But it is interesting that both somnolence and insomnia seem to be in the "very common" category (1-10%) of side effects. Sleep disorder is in the "uncommon" (.1-1%) category, which is quite a few people developing sleep disorders taking modafinil. https://www.drugs.com/sfx/modafinil-side-effects.html https://www.drugs.com/sfx/modafinil-side-effects.html
  - 5y ago

Kydlaw 5y ago

> Modafinil isn't an amphetamine. That's not what he said. The different responses he gave to the questions asked on his tweet are actually interesting, you might have a look.

gwern 5y ago
"25%" + "5-10%" = "30-35%".

wheelinsupial 5y ago

It does sound like the post is talking about anecdata, but there have been some studies looking at prescription drug usage in students: 2018: https://cssl.osu.edu/documents/cpds-key-findings-2018.pdf https://cssl.osu.edu/documents/cpds-key-findings-2018.pdf 2015: https://cssl.osu.edu/posts/632320bc-704d-4eef-8bcb-87c83019f2e9/documents/cpds-key-findings-report-2015.pdf https://cssl.osu.edu/posts/632320bc-704d-4eef-8bcb-87c83019f... Sure, there is still some issues with the methodology since it's a self-reported internet survey. Data I'll report below is formatted as 2015/2018. 18.6% / 15.9% of respondents admitted to misusing stimulants for non-medical reasons, 84.9% / 79.2% of stimulant users reported using it to study or improve grades. Consequence of use: 63% / 60% of stimulant users reported "Experienced a positive impact on your academics as a result of your use" What follows was only reported in 2018: When are you most likely to misuse prescription drugs to study? 76% answered during finals or exams, 53% Before a test or project, 38% When I feel behind, 17% When I want to get ahead, 6% When I need a competitive edge, 8% Continuously throughout the term. When did you start misusing prescription drugs to study? Undergrads n = 1,399: 29% Before college, 38% first year, 21% second year, 10% third year, 3% fourth year or later. Grads / professional students n = 381: 10% Before college, 73% during college, 3% between grad college and grad school, 8% first year of grad / prof, 6% second year of grad/prof or later. The 2015 study reports: Actual versus Perceived Use Among CPDS Student Respondents - Stimulants Undergrads Actual: 18.6% Perceived: 33.6% Grads Actual: 6.8% Perceived: 24.2% We can use that to potentially assess the reported anecdata. > Probably not much to see here other than some outrage for attention. I think it depends. If the research quoted in [1] is correct, then taking these drugs either has no effect, or it only benefits low-performers. So, if it's only benefiting low-performers, then it needs to be determined if these low-performers are turned into high-performers, and, if so, does this mean typical high-performers without additional enhancements are losing out to those who are enhanced? I suppose it's more an ethical / moral value judgement than anything else. As they say in American sports: if you're not cheating, you're not competing. [1] https://www.altamirarecovery.com/blog/adderall-addiction-amongst-california-tech-workers-requires-intensive-treatment/ https://www.altamirarecovery.com/blog/adderall-addiction-amo...