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For those of us who have lost loved ones. Who have lost their business. Who weren’t allowed to see their dying father in the ICU because of COVID restrictions.

For those of us who have lost loved ones. Who have lost their business. Who weren’t allowed to see their dying father in the ICU because of COVID restrictions. For the 3M “lost children” who never logged on once for school last year. For the future generations who will have to reckon with the economic disaster we may be kicking down the road. For all of those people and more, we deserve to know the truth. That’s the very least we are owed.

krsrhe 5y ago
Why? Will the truth mitigate the prevent or prevent a future one? What matters is the possibility of a leak, not if one happened. The origin leak is nothing compared to the repeated failures hat happened after and are still happening.
- ctrlp 5y ago
  The leak is one thing, if true. The cover-up (if there was a leak) during a critical window of possible containment is another thing. But we will likely never get the truth.
- listless 5y ago
  The truth matters a great deal to anyone who has suffered and lost. It’s not unique to the pandemic. The parent who has lost a child. The spouse who has been cheated on. The employee who has been unjustly fired. They want the truth. The not knowing makes it almost unbearable.
patentatt 5y ago
But the comment you’re responding to said it’s unknowable, not that it shouldn’t be known. It’s not an argument of merit but of practicality. I’d also add that it’s irrelevant. Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change? Are we going to start WWIII over it? I’d hope not. Maybe ‘the powers that be’ came to the same conclusion early on and tried to stem the public outcry, and maybe that’s ok. If you say that the value of finding out it was a lab leak would lead to stricter controls or dissuade similar research, I’d say that that has already happened. So I agree with OP in that it’s a distraction at this point and we should put all effort and mental energy into dealing with the pandemic rather than finding someone to blame.
- kongin 5y ago
  > I’d also add that it’s irrelevant. Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change? Demanding reparations from China for their WMD program going out of control would be a good start. Then criminal cases against everyone involved in the West who approved something so boneheadedly evil and pointless.
  - nso 5y ago
    Research on viruses happens a lot of places, it doesn't mean it's being weaponized.
  - shlant 5y ago
    do you think that live virus research including gain-of-function serves no purpose whatsoever other than for WMD's? It's just "evil and pointless"?
  - GuB-42 5y ago
    That's a good way to start WWIII. WWII started like that. To make things simple, countries who lost WWI were destabilized and reparations were a big reason. It promoted the raise of nationalist, revengeful leaders like Hitler and Mussolini. You know the rest. They carefully avoided making the same mistake after WWII.
    - titovodka 5y ago
      Avoiding confrontation with evil will only allow evil to prevail. The only reason the US hasn’t gotten after china is because of the economic/supply chain ties and the implication of the US gov itself.
    - ctrlp 5y ago
      This is an oversimplification to the point of being just untrue.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    There is a fundamental difference between developing a biological weapon and a leak of a pathogen being analyzed as part of research program. There is absolutely as far as I know no reason to believe that covid is a biological weapon. Such a virus in fact would be an awful weapon. It acts very slowly relative to any evolving conflict with someone who has ample access to weapons that act of minutes and hours vs months and years. It is near impossible to broadly vaccinate your own population without telegraphing your intent to act and probably leaking your vaccine and may mutate beyond your ability to control it and damage your own population. It is like being in an armed standoff in a building full of soldiers from each side and "attacking" the enemy by setting fire to the building you are all in. A virus is a weapon of terror not war. It is unfit for purpose.
notacoward 5y ago
Yellow card: appeal to emotion. GP was clearly talking about practicality and practical effects of obsessing over lab-leak theories, not the moral or general desirability of knowing the truth. We can work toward better lab safety and oversight of dangerous research and responses to outbreaks without fueling nationalist/racist paranoia. In fact people are also doing so, while others use lab leaks as a pretext for driving division they sought anyway.

krsrhe 5y ago

Why? Will the truth mitigate the prevent or prevent a future one? What matters is the possibility of a leak, not if one happened. The origin leak is nothing compared to the repeated failures hat happened after and are still happening.

ctrlp 5y ago
The leak is one thing, if true. The cover-up (if there was a leak) during a critical window of possible containment is another thing. But we will likely never get the truth.
listless 5y ago
The truth matters a great deal to anyone who has suffered and lost. It’s not unique to the pandemic. The parent who has lost a child. The spouse who has been cheated on. The employee who has been unjustly fired. They want the truth. The not knowing makes it almost unbearable.

patentatt 5y ago

But the comment you’re responding to said it’s unknowable, not that it shouldn’t be known. It’s not an argument of merit but of practicality. I’d also add that it’s irrelevant. Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change? Are we going to start WWIII over it? I’d hope not. Maybe ‘the powers that be’ came to the same conclusion early on and tried to stem the public outcry, and maybe that’s ok. If you say that the value of finding out it was a lab leak would lead to stricter controls or dissuade similar research, I’d say that that has already happened. So I agree with OP in that it’s a distraction at this point and we should put all effort and mental energy into dealing with the pandemic rather than finding someone to blame.

kongin 5y ago
> I’d also add that it’s irrelevant. Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change? Demanding reparations from China for their WMD program going out of control would be a good start. Then criminal cases against everyone involved in the West who approved something so boneheadedly evil and pointless.
- nso 5y ago
  Research on viruses happens a lot of places, it doesn't mean it's being weaponized.
- shlant 5y ago
  do you think that live virus research including gain-of-function serves no purpose whatsoever other than for WMD's? It's just "evil and pointless"?
- GuB-42 5y ago
  That's a good way to start WWIII. WWII started like that. To make things simple, countries who lost WWI were destabilized and reparations were a big reason. It promoted the raise of nationalist, revengeful leaders like Hitler and Mussolini. You know the rest. They carefully avoided making the same mistake after WWII.
  - titovodka 5y ago
    Avoiding confrontation with evil will only allow evil to prevail. The only reason the US hasn’t gotten after china is because of the economic/supply chain ties and the implication of the US gov itself.
  - ctrlp 5y ago
    This is an oversimplification to the point of being just untrue.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  There is a fundamental difference between developing a biological weapon and a leak of a pathogen being analyzed as part of research program. There is absolutely as far as I know no reason to believe that covid is a biological weapon. Such a virus in fact would be an awful weapon. It acts very slowly relative to any evolving conflict with someone who has ample access to weapons that act of minutes and hours vs months and years. It is near impossible to broadly vaccinate your own population without telegraphing your intent to act and probably leaking your vaccine and may mutate beyond your ability to control it and damage your own population. It is like being in an armed standoff in a building full of soldiers from each side and "attacking" the enemy by setting fire to the building you are all in. A virus is a weapon of terror not war. It is unfit for purpose.

notacoward 5y ago

Yellow card: appeal to emotion. GP was clearly talking about practicality and practical effects of obsessing over lab-leak theories, not the moral or general desirability of knowing the truth. We can work toward better lab safety and oversight of dangerous research and responses to outbreaks without fueling nationalist/racist paranoia. In fact people are also doing so, while others use lab leaks as a pretext for driving division they sought anyway.