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> it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class

> it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. I have a daughter, now an adult, which Ritalin and/or Adderall provided real benefit. The only thing in question was how to find the right one and right dosage to minimize the side effects )lack of appetite and sometimes stomach aches). The difference was very clear, and was exhibited multiple times. For example when we let her go off it at her request during the middle of her sophomore year in high school, and she went from getting B's and C's to getting flunking a quarter of four of six classes, and then going back to not flunking anything and getting mostly B's by the end of the year when she went back on the medication. This was not an isolated incident, it happened 2-3 times over junior high and high school. That's the thing about medication. Different people respond to it in different ways. That's why studies look for statistical significance, not "guaranteed to do what it says". Edit: The language of the original comment has since been softened to no longer imply that's the only or main reason, which I appreciate.

hagibborim 5y ago
The phrasing of the poster you're responding to does not discount the experience you're describing. I don't see how they could be more careful.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > does not discount the experience you're describing It's not about saying it's not possible, it's about setting expectations, and scaring people away from a medication which may be helpful. >> Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. That clearly states the reason it's administered is not primarily for the child's benefit. While it doesn't discount that the child may benefit, it clearly sets the expectation that it's not the child's well being that's being considered. The natural extension of accepting that is to wonder if there's any actual benefit to the child or if that part is just in service to "the secret". Implying that the reason a specific medicine is prescribed is not actually for the benefit of the patient might have real repercussions if it scares away someone that it could have haloed. At a minimum, I think a statement like that should be backed up in some manner.
  - hirako2000 5y ago
    I'm sorry, we cannot easily back this up. It would take confession of an intent, which most prescribers aren't even aware of. A single mom, exhausted with 2 part time jobs and 3 young kids put them in front of tele tubies all day long. Is that for her own benefit or for the benefits of the children? We don't even have clear evidence of the overall impart of such educating programs on child development. But we have to use common sense and agree it benefits carers if they want to get more time for themselves. It doesn't imply careless attitude, or consciousness of the motive, the kids appear to enjoy anyway. I think the comment was made out of common sense: attention deficit of just one student can cause serious classroom management issues, it isn't naive or prejudicial to point out what we don't hear very often: the prescription isn't for the child own' benefit.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  I could have explicitly acknowledged that sometimes the child's welfare is the primary concern. I could have used weaker language, too. I've updated my comment a bit to more accurately reflect my understanding.
- tomrod 5y ago
  I find we often project or minimize opinions and positions that don't account for our pet emphases. I agree with your take. Take an example of someone who posts solely facts in a controversial topic. Folks that disagree with the direction the facts point will ascribe all manner of negative projection to said poster. But does that reflect on the facts-poster, or on the interpreters? Online communication is such an odd thing.
hnuser123456 5y ago
In my case, it "worked" by making me far more anxious of failure and the judgement of others. For 8 years. I had never previously had suicidal thoughts but I did less than a year after starting the "meds." Then I got in trouble for discussing suicide with another student. The whole situation is more hellishly dystopian than a grimdark fiction writer could imagine. It's no mystery why gen Z are often aggressive doomers. Maybe we could re-evaluate the school system instead of drugging kids to be more scared and spineless? Once I quit the meds and went to college (and did fine btw but maybe because my brain was already permanently altered), it took about a decade for me to realize most people are pretty cool and don't expect you to bend to every whimsical demand of any size, and you don't need to be terrified of everyone around you who could tell you to do anything at any time and you'll get in massive trouble if you don't.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > I did less than a year after starting the "meds." Then I got in trouble for discussing suicide with another student I'm sorry to hear that. I believe that's why we had mandated psychiatric visits while my daughter was on the medication. We couldn't get refills without meeting with the doctor to discuss how it was going. It definitely sounds like it wasn't working well for you, either because of how the medication expressed itself in your case or your specific school situation, or a combination thereof. > Maybe we could re-evaluate the school system instead of drugging kids to be more scared and spineless? While I'm not going to argue that school couldn't do with a bit of change, I'm not sure it's fair to extrapolate what everyone's experience is from what happened to you. As an example, I remember an incident early in seventh grade there was an incident in gym class when we were being taught the fundamentals of wrestling, where after one match and unfortunate classmate earned himself the nickname 'boner' and the ridicule to go with it, which lasted a few years. This undoubtedly made his life much harder. A number of lessons could be taken away from that situation, but "we should stop teaching wrestling in gym class" is probably not one of the better ones. Should we stop medicating students? Maybe. That probably depends on quite a lot of factors, most of which I don't know enough about. But I would hope that a better solution where those that the medication helps take it and those that it doesn't or the problems associated with it are enough to make it a bad choice don't is an achievable outcome that we should strive for.
AussieWog93 5y ago
>Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. That's definitely correct. It can be a great help for some children, and some teachers (maybe even the majority) do make carefully considered decisions where the primary concern is for the welfare of the child receiving the drugs. Other times, though, they just want some ratbag kid to STFU so they can get on with their job. I distinctly remember overhearing a conversation where a teacher wanted to (in her words) "sedate" a problem child so that they don't disrupt the rest of the classroom.
- ryanobjc 5y ago
  Every `ratbag kid` is someones child, someone who's brain who has been at odds with the expectations foisted upon them their entire life, and who may be tired of failing but can't figure out how not do. It makes me sad to read comments like this.
  - xchaotic 5y ago
    But overall such a kid disrupts the whole class so we have worse outcomes for the whole group, kid included if the teaching can’t continue
- kbenson 5y ago
  > some teachers (maybe even the majority) do make carefully considered decisions In the United States, teachers do not prescribe medications. They may make a recommendation that parents seek the guidance of a doctor, and a qualified medical professional (usually a psychiatrist) will diagnose the child, and the parent may choose to pursue medicating or not. In our case, we had regular checkup appointments with a psychiatrist where our daughter and us were present at the same time, and a later point in the session where the parents were asked to leave so the psychiatrist could speak with her privately. > I distinctly remember overhearing a conversation where a teacher wanted to (in her words) "sedate" a problem child so that they don't disrupt the rest of the classroom. Unless the laws have changed since then in Australia, Ritalin is a controlled substance, according to this, and it's not even guaranteed a general practitioner can prescribe it, and a psychiatrist is preferred.[1] Maybe you misheard, or maybe the teacher misunderstood what their capabilities were? 1: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/pharmaceutical/patients/Pages/faq-adhd-consumers.aspx#bookmark7 https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/pharmaceutical/patients/Pages/...
treeman79 5y ago
Have 2 daughters on adhd medication. I held off a long time. But finally relented. Night and day difference. Rolling around on the floor endlessly to top of class. I haven’t found one my body can tolerate for long. But it was so weird to feel normal and not this horrific agony at trying to stay on task.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Try sativa-type cannabis with a vaporizer. Steer clear of indica-type.
  - bregma 5y ago
    Self-medication is a symptom, not a treatment.
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      Get a prescription, then? Cannabis is a valid medical treatment for ADHD.
  - treeman79 5y ago
    No thank you. I won’t go near they stuff. Even the smoke from someone else causes a severe reaction. I do have an actual diagnosis and doctor for ADHD
Hendrikto 5y ago
Grades are not really a reflection of well-being though. Not saying that she is not better off with the drugs, just that you failed to show that. You can be a horribly depressed empty shell pf a human, but still "function" in society.

hagibborim 5y ago

The phrasing of the poster you're responding to does not discount the experience you're describing. I don't see how they could be more careful.

kbenson 5y ago
> does not discount the experience you're describing It's not about saying it's not possible, it's about setting expectations, and scaring people away from a medication which may be helpful. >> Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. That clearly states the reason it's administered is not primarily for the child's benefit. While it doesn't discount that the child may benefit, it clearly sets the expectation that it's not the child's well being that's being considered. The natural extension of accepting that is to wonder if there's any actual benefit to the child or if that part is just in service to "the secret". Implying that the reason a specific medicine is prescribed is not actually for the benefit of the patient might have real repercussions if it scares away someone that it could have haloed. At a minimum, I think a statement like that should be backed up in some manner.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  I'm sorry, we cannot easily back this up. It would take confession of an intent, which most prescribers aren't even aware of. A single mom, exhausted with 2 part time jobs and 3 young kids put them in front of tele tubies all day long. Is that for her own benefit or for the benefits of the children? We don't even have clear evidence of the overall impart of such educating programs on child development. But we have to use common sense and agree it benefits carers if they want to get more time for themselves. It doesn't imply careless attitude, or consciousness of the motive, the kids appear to enjoy anyway. I think the comment was made out of common sense: attention deficit of just one student can cause serious classroom management issues, it isn't naive or prejudicial to point out what we don't hear very often: the prescription isn't for the child own' benefit.
AussieWog93 5y ago
I could have explicitly acknowledged that sometimes the child's welfare is the primary concern. I could have used weaker language, too. I've updated my comment a bit to more accurately reflect my understanding.
tomrod 5y ago
I find we often project or minimize opinions and positions that don't account for our pet emphases. I agree with your take. Take an example of someone who posts solely facts in a controversial topic. Folks that disagree with the direction the facts point will ascribe all manner of negative projection to said poster. But does that reflect on the facts-poster, or on the interpreters? Online communication is such an odd thing.

hnuser123456 5y ago

In my case, it "worked" by making me far more anxious of failure and the judgement of others. For 8 years. I had never previously had suicidal thoughts but I did less than a year after starting the "meds." Then I got in trouble for discussing suicide with another student. The whole situation is more hellishly dystopian than a grimdark fiction writer could imagine. It's no mystery why gen Z are often aggressive doomers. Maybe we could re-evaluate the school system instead of drugging kids to be more scared and spineless? Once I quit the meds and went to college (and did fine btw but maybe because my brain was already permanently altered), it took about a decade for me to realize most people are pretty cool and don't expect you to bend to every whimsical demand of any size, and you don't need to be terrified of everyone around you who could tell you to do anything at any time and you'll get in massive trouble if you don't.

kbenson 5y ago
> I did less than a year after starting the "meds." Then I got in trouble for discussing suicide with another student I'm sorry to hear that. I believe that's why we had mandated psychiatric visits while my daughter was on the medication. We couldn't get refills without meeting with the doctor to discuss how it was going. It definitely sounds like it wasn't working well for you, either because of how the medication expressed itself in your case or your specific school situation, or a combination thereof. > Maybe we could re-evaluate the school system instead of drugging kids to be more scared and spineless? While I'm not going to argue that school couldn't do with a bit of change, I'm not sure it's fair to extrapolate what everyone's experience is from what happened to you. As an example, I remember an incident early in seventh grade there was an incident in gym class when we were being taught the fundamentals of wrestling, where after one match and unfortunate classmate earned himself the nickname 'boner' and the ridicule to go with it, which lasted a few years. This undoubtedly made his life much harder. A number of lessons could be taken away from that situation, but "we should stop teaching wrestling in gym class" is probably not one of the better ones. Should we stop medicating students? Maybe. That probably depends on quite a lot of factors, most of which I don't know enough about. But I would hope that a better solution where those that the medication helps take it and those that it doesn't or the problems associated with it are enough to make it a bad choice don't is an achievable outcome that we should strive for.

AussieWog93 5y ago

>Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. That's definitely correct. It can be a great help for some children, and some teachers (maybe even the majority) do make carefully considered decisions where the primary concern is for the welfare of the child receiving the drugs. Other times, though, they just want some ratbag kid to STFU so they can get on with their job. I distinctly remember overhearing a conversation where a teacher wanted to (in her words) "sedate" a problem child so that they don't disrupt the rest of the classroom.

ryanobjc 5y ago
Every `ratbag kid` is someones child, someone who's brain who has been at odds with the expectations foisted upon them their entire life, and who may be tired of failing but can't figure out how not do. It makes me sad to read comments like this.
- xchaotic 5y ago
  But overall such a kid disrupts the whole class so we have worse outcomes for the whole group, kid included if the teaching can’t continue
kbenson 5y ago
> some teachers (maybe even the majority) do make carefully considered decisions In the United States, teachers do not prescribe medications. They may make a recommendation that parents seek the guidance of a doctor, and a qualified medical professional (usually a psychiatrist) will diagnose the child, and the parent may choose to pursue medicating or not. In our case, we had regular checkup appointments with a psychiatrist where our daughter and us were present at the same time, and a later point in the session where the parents were asked to leave so the psychiatrist could speak with her privately. > I distinctly remember overhearing a conversation where a teacher wanted to (in her words) "sedate" a problem child so that they don't disrupt the rest of the classroom. Unless the laws have changed since then in Australia, Ritalin is a controlled substance, according to this, and it's not even guaranteed a general practitioner can prescribe it, and a psychiatrist is preferred.[1] Maybe you misheard, or maybe the teacher misunderstood what their capabilities were? 1: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/pharmaceutical/patients/Pages/faq-adhd-consumers.aspx#bookmark7 https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/pharmaceutical/patients/Pages/...

treeman79 5y ago

Have 2 daughters on adhd medication. I held off a long time. But finally relented. Night and day difference. Rolling around on the floor endlessly to top of class. I haven’t found one my body can tolerate for long. But it was so weird to feel normal and not this horrific agony at trying to stay on task.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Try sativa-type cannabis with a vaporizer. Steer clear of indica-type.
- bregma 5y ago
  Self-medication is a symptom, not a treatment.
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    Get a prescription, then? Cannabis is a valid medical treatment for ADHD.
- treeman79 5y ago
  No thank you. I won’t go near they stuff. Even the smoke from someone else causes a severe reaction. I do have an actual diagnosis and doctor for ADHD

Hendrikto 5y ago

Grades are not really a reflection of well-being though. Not saying that she is not better off with the drugs, just that you failed to show that. You can be a horribly depressed empty shell pf a human, but still "function" in society.