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The Verge and the rest of the media was incorrect, because the injunction goes with a 185-page ruling the media didn’t read that explained it in greater detail

The Verge and the rest of the media was incorrect, because the injunction goes with a 185-page ruling the media didn’t read that explained it in greater detail how to interpret the injunction. You cannot use your own IAP system. You can link to a webpage, but Apple is still entitled to the 30% cut and can bill the developer after the fact each month or so for the commission that would have been paid. And for this reason, Epic owes 30% of their unpaid iOS IAP revenue to Apple (about $4 million) for breach of contract and Apple does not need to let Fortnite back on the store. Epic won almost nothing. 9/10 counts lost, and the remaining count they won still owes 30% but it would be collected through a different method. Super shallow victory that.

jjcon 5y ago
> but Apple is still entitled to the 30% cut and can bill the developer after the fact each month or so for the commission that would have been paid. Even if that were accurate (which it isn’t really), there is no way Apple would be able to actually collect that commission. People can now link to their websites, patreons, Venmo links etc. this pushes the doors wide open. The Judge here was speaking to the use of alternative in-app payment processors (which the parent article is wrong about) which apple would be entitled to cuts of. If people link out to the web no such agreement exists. Here is the actual text, see for yourself: “The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store”
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  >Even if that were accurate It's literally the text of the ruling. However, yes, it looks like Hollywood math will soon apply to online gaming transactions.
  - jjcon 5y ago
    It’s literally not in the text, no need to get snarky without even providing a quote. Here is the text which by my reading speaks to the falsehood of the parent article: “The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store.” Note ‘made within apps’. This suggests alternative IN APP purchases, which again is at odds with the parent article. If you are kicked to safari this would not apply.
    - wokwokwok 5y ago
      Respectfully, you’re (I presume) not a lawyer and neither am I; a layman’s reading of a legal ruling is a Bad Idea. Do what you want with your app, but I urge anyone who does to seek legal advise first, rather than relying on their own interpretation of parts of the ruling.
      - jjcon 5y ago
        I’m speaking hypothetically, I’m no apple app developer I have no skin in this game
    - GeekyBear 5y ago
      The point is covered multiple times in the ruling: >Under all models, Apple would be entitled to a commission or licensing fee, even if IAP was optional. >Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that comission. >Apple is entitled to license it's intellectual property for a fee, and to guard its intellectual property from uncompensated use by others. >While the court finds no basis for the specific rate chosen by Apple (i.e., the 30% rate) based on the record, the Court still concludes that Apple is entitled to some compensation for the use of it's intellectual property. >To the extent Epic Games suggests that Apple receive nothing from in-app purchases made on its platform, such a ruling is inconsistent with prevailing intellectual property law
      - gpm 5y ago
        > Apple could still charge a commission on developers. Note the could not the does, Apple can make the contract say this, but the court is not saying the current contract does (the question wasn't before the court). I doubt the current contract does because it didn't need to, and because historically that's how Apple has worked (you weren't allowed to link to payments off of Apple, but if someone found your website and paid for things there you didn't have to give Apple a commission).
- Elidrake24 5y ago
  And risk permanent bans from releasing on the App Store. This model of collecting outside of your walled garden isn’t even remotely new; hell, it’s how Epic’s own Unreal Engine operated for the majority of its lifetime.
- simondotau 5y ago
  This is absolutely false. As evidence of this, Epic doesn’t need to handle all game sales in order to collect their commission from developers who use Unreal Engine. It would require honesty by app developers and Apple to build new infrastructure to account for and receive commission payments from developers, but there’s no impediment. Only inconvenience.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    And it's a contractually obligated requirement - that means Apple can suspend your developer account, remove you from the App Store, and potentially sue you for breach of contract, if they suspect you are fudging the numbers or not paying.
  - jjcon 5y ago
    > Epic doesn’t need to handle all game sales in order to collect their commission from developers who use Unreal Engine. This has nothing to do with honesty. If I link to my website and someone donates, there is no way for me to know they were referred from the app. Furthermore the actual quote being referenced reads, “The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store” Which seems to be at odds with the parent article. If someone uses an alternative IN APP payment method (which would be traceable) then yes, Apple would be entitled. If they link their website and are taken out of the app, no such agreement exists.
    - amaranth 5y ago
      > "Apple is: 'permanently restrained . . . from prohibiting developers from including in their apps . . . calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms'" > "Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission." (page 150) My reading of these two statements is that you could link to your website but you'd be contractually obligated to make it possible to tell that visit came from your app so you could give Apple their cut.
  - 5y ago
simondotau 5y ago
More precisely Epic won nothing, as they have no prospect of getting any future revenue from the iOS ecosystem, save for winning on appeal.
- MattRix 5y ago
  Apple has said that they will reinstate Epic’s account if they agree to follow the rules, so Epic can earn future revenue on iOS if they want to… but so far they’ve said they don’t plan to change their stance.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    That is true and I stand corrected. I had discounted that as a potential option due to Tim Sweeney's prior and current statements on the matter.
  - gpm 5y ago
    Have they said this recently (i.e. do we know if that offer still exists?) The latest from Tim Sweeney sounds like they're trying to get the account back for Mac OS, though they're not interested in iOS at this time. I assume that means they're willing to follow the rules by simply not publishing iOS apps (but that is an assumption) (All tweets from Sept 10 2021) > Fortnite will return to the iOS App Store when and where Epic can offer in-app payment in fair competition with Apple in-app payment, passing along the savings to consumers. https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1436370846545809410 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/143637084654580941... > Like Apple’s attempt to retaliate against all Unreal Engine customers, their refusal to restore Epic’s Fortnite developer account is vindicative and nonsensical. We’re fighting Apple over their iOS terms, but this ban blocks Fortnite from Mac too. Nobody’s arguing about Mac. https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1436340363720118277 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/143634036372011827...
    - MattRix 5y ago
      Yup, Apple just said this to The Verge: “As we’ve said all along, we would welcome Epic’s return to the App Store if they agree to play by the same rules as everyone else”. https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22666146/apple-epic-korea-fortnite-developer-account-rules-response https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22666146/apple-epic-korea...

jjcon 5y ago

> but Apple is still entitled to the 30% cut and can bill the developer after the fact each month or so for the commission that would have been paid. Even if that were accurate (which it isn’t really), there is no way Apple would be able to actually collect that commission. People can now link to their websites, patreons, Venmo links etc. this pushes the doors wide open. The Judge here was speaking to the use of alternative in-app payment processors (which the parent article is wrong about) which apple would be entitled to cuts of. If people link out to the web no such agreement exists. Here is the actual text, see for yourself: “The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store”

GeekyBear 5y ago
>Even if that were accurate It's literally the text of the ruling. However, yes, it looks like Hollywood math will soon apply to online gaming transactions.
- jjcon 5y ago
  It’s literally not in the text, no need to get snarky without even providing a quote. Here is the text which by my reading speaks to the falsehood of the parent article: “The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store.” Note ‘made within apps’. This suggests alternative IN APP purchases, which again is at odds with the parent article. If you are kicked to safari this would not apply.
  - wokwokwok 5y ago
    Respectfully, you’re (I presume) not a lawyer and neither am I; a layman’s reading of a legal ruling is a Bad Idea. Do what you want with your app, but I urge anyone who does to seek legal advise first, rather than relying on their own interpretation of parts of the ruling.
    - jjcon 5y ago
      I’m speaking hypothetically, I’m no apple app developer I have no skin in this game
  - GeekyBear 5y ago
    The point is covered multiple times in the ruling: >Under all models, Apple would be entitled to a commission or licensing fee, even if IAP was optional. >Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that comission. >Apple is entitled to license it's intellectual property for a fee, and to guard its intellectual property from uncompensated use by others. >While the court finds no basis for the specific rate chosen by Apple (i.e., the 30% rate) based on the record, the Court still concludes that Apple is entitled to some compensation for the use of it's intellectual property. >To the extent Epic Games suggests that Apple receive nothing from in-app purchases made on its platform, such a ruling is inconsistent with prevailing intellectual property law
    - gpm 5y ago
      > Apple could still charge a commission on developers. Note the could not the does, Apple can make the contract say this, but the court is not saying the current contract does (the question wasn't before the court). I doubt the current contract does because it didn't need to, and because historically that's how Apple has worked (you weren't allowed to link to payments off of Apple, but if someone found your website and paid for things there you didn't have to give Apple a commission).
Elidrake24 5y ago
And risk permanent bans from releasing on the App Store. This model of collecting outside of your walled garden isn’t even remotely new; hell, it’s how Epic’s own Unreal Engine operated for the majority of its lifetime.
simondotau 5y ago
This is absolutely false. As evidence of this, Epic doesn’t need to handle all game sales in order to collect their commission from developers who use Unreal Engine. It would require honesty by app developers and Apple to build new infrastructure to account for and receive commission payments from developers, but there’s no impediment. Only inconvenience.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  And it's a contractually obligated requirement - that means Apple can suspend your developer account, remove you from the App Store, and potentially sue you for breach of contract, if they suspect you are fudging the numbers or not paying.
- jjcon 5y ago
  > Epic doesn’t need to handle all game sales in order to collect their commission from developers who use Unreal Engine. This has nothing to do with honesty. If I link to my website and someone donates, there is no way for me to know they were referred from the app. Furthermore the actual quote being referenced reads, “The Court also notes that in the but-for world where developers could use an alternative processor, Apple would still be contractually entitled to its commission on any purchase made within apps distributed on the App Store” Which seems to be at odds with the parent article. If someone uses an alternative IN APP payment method (which would be traceable) then yes, Apple would be entitled. If they link their website and are taken out of the app, no such agreement exists.
  - amaranth 5y ago
    > "Apple is: 'permanently restrained . . . from prohibiting developers from including in their apps . . . calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms'" > "Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission." (page 150) My reading of these two statements is that you could link to your website but you'd be contractually obligated to make it possible to tell that visit came from your app so you could give Apple their cut.
- 5y ago

simondotau 5y ago

More precisely Epic won nothing, as they have no prospect of getting any future revenue from the iOS ecosystem, save for winning on appeal.

MattRix 5y ago
Apple has said that they will reinstate Epic’s account if they agree to follow the rules, so Epic can earn future revenue on iOS if they want to… but so far they’ve said they don’t plan to change their stance.
- simondotau 5y ago
  That is true and I stand corrected. I had discounted that as a potential option due to Tim Sweeney's prior and current statements on the matter.
- gpm 5y ago
  Have they said this recently (i.e. do we know if that offer still exists?) The latest from Tim Sweeney sounds like they're trying to get the account back for Mac OS, though they're not interested in iOS at this time. I assume that means they're willing to follow the rules by simply not publishing iOS apps (but that is an assumption) (All tweets from Sept 10 2021) > Fortnite will return to the iOS App Store when and where Epic can offer in-app payment in fair competition with Apple in-app payment, passing along the savings to consumers. https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1436370846545809410 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/143637084654580941... > Like Apple’s attempt to retaliate against all Unreal Engine customers, their refusal to restore Epic’s Fortnite developer account is vindicative and nonsensical. We’re fighting Apple over their iOS terms, but this ban blocks Fortnite from Mac too. Nobody’s arguing about Mac. https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1436340363720118277 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/143634036372011827...
  - MattRix 5y ago
    Yup, Apple just said this to The Verge: “As we’ve said all along, we would welcome Epic’s return to the App Store if they agree to play by the same rules as everyone else”. https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22666146/apple-epic-korea-fortnite-developer-account-rules-response https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22666146/apple-epic-korea...