4 ms·

More generally, societies that treat minority opinions and individuality badly are poorer and less stable. Whether it's women's rights, gay/other minority righ

by bserge 5y ago

More generally, societies that treat minority opinions and individuality badly are poorer and less stable. Whether it's women's rights, gay/other minority rights, drug usage, mental health, individual freedoms.

umvi 5y ago
China is pretty hostile toward minority opinions and they are quickly becoming the richest country in the world
- jollybean 5y ago
  'China' point is definitely fair, but they're nowhere near becoming rich in a GDP/capita basis. China is poorer than Mexico on a nominal and PPP basis. Poorer than Brazil on a nominal basis. They're going to have difficulty closing in on Chile, Latvia and Poland there. [1] On a PPP basis, it's much harder to fathom - they definitely have access to 'cheap goods' so of course their PPP basis is considerably higher, at the same time the quality of most things is very bad, the air is unbreathable in many places, outside major city centres services are problematic and civic dysfunction is still rife. So the that PPP calculation is tricky, and we know it's also leverage for Brazil just as well. But also note China does have serious economic 'leaders' that those other countries do not, and, China might treat ethnic and gay minorities poorly, but for women it's not the same. DiDi CEO is a female, and female leadership is normal there. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/
  - l332mn 5y ago
    > at the same time the quality of most things is very bad What an ignorant thing to say. China generally produces high quality stuff, for their own population as well as for the entire world.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      I'm sorry that you're not aware of the reality of total lack of quality in many products and services in China, which is partly due to a function of lower costing, but also due to a general lack of industrial focus on quality, and particularly a lack of standards. And then gaslight others for pointing out the facts ... I work for a company that sells an electrical device, which has considerable standards applied in Europe and North America, and basically none in China. The competitive products to ours in China are essentially dangerous. They will start fires. We manufacture in China, and depending on the manufacturer, can usually make no assumptions about quality, other than it will be the lowest possible unless there is considerable oversight. Unbelievable, 'shocking' hacks and cutting corners, which we view as a matter of quality, they view as a matter of cost reduction. With the bigger factories that do business with big established brands, that's less of a problem because they're consistently building for markets with higher standards and requirements. For some thoughts on Food Safety [1][2] In China, in the year 2000, only 50% of the population had 'basic sanitation' services i.e. toilets. That's changed a lot, but there are still wide swaths of population literally without basic sanitation. The number is effectively 100% in almost every other semi-developed country. [3]. Even in 2015, 5% of the country still does not have access to basic water. [4] Chinese construction standards are de-facto low (they have regulations, just not very well met), so here are two videos that demonstrate some issues [5][6] - to be fair - this is all anecdotal, and China is a 'very large place'. You're surely going to find crap construction in every country, however, the anecdotes are quite excessive, and they are illustrative. Entire sections of homes, only a few years old completely falling apart, buildings falling down etc.. This affects major projects [7] - there are systematic problems with the quality of concrete that will come home to roost some day. As far as Air Quality, it's 'Very Bad' - the CEO of DiDi lamented this herself, indicating literally her children had difficulty breathing. Have a look [8] at the air quality literally at this moment in time. Up to 30% of China is, at this literal moment in time, breathing air that is 'hazardous'. And of course the political issues, censorship etc. - but those are harder to factor into an economic equation. So when calculating PPP - the material quality of goods does matter, things like 'air quality' aren't in that calculation but they very well do matter as they are a direct externalization of the system. China is a large, poor country and derives it's economic power mostly from it's size, not that much else. It's different than Brazil or India (other large, poor countries) in that it does have a number of economic champions. There's almost a 100% chance that China will soon have the largest economy in the world (by many measure it already does), but almost a 0% chance that we will see GDP/capita, even on a PPP basis, reach that of most modern nations, at least in our lifetimes. That is happening/will happen only for a subset of the population. [1] https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/07/chinas-food-safety-issues-are-worse-than-you-thought/ https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/07/chinas-food-safety-is... [2] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/fsn3.1281 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/fsn3.1281 [3] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-11-18/How-the-Toilet-Revolution-is-changing-China-LH2SCXCemQ/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-11-18/How-the-Toilet-Revolut... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... [5] https://digg.com/video/heres-a-disturbing-supercut-of-poorly-constructed-buildings-in-china-falling-apart https://digg.com/video/heres-a-disturbing-supercut-of-poorly... [6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E&ab_channel=ADVChina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E&ab_channel=ADVCh... [7] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1191896/shenzhen-construction-hold-after-alert-over-cheap-sand-concrete https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1191896/shenzhen-con... [8] https://aqicn.org/map/china/ https://aqicn.org/map/china/
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Whether or not that growth is stable and entirely above board is an open matter of speculation here on a monthly basis.
avereveard 5y ago
Ah yes the poor and unstable Japan.
klyrs 5y ago
Women are neither a minority nor an opinion.
- HKH2 5y ago
  Is feminism not part of individuality?
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Feminism is a philosophy, ideology, social movement, political movement, etc. Not all women are feminists, and not all feminists are women.
    - HKH2 5y ago
      So? I never said otherwise.
shakow 5y ago
> societies that treat minority opinions and individuality badly are poorer and less stable. Remind me what happened to the two states that, for the first, applied a simili-apartheid in half the country, and, for the second, held its population in an iron vice? Ah yes, they got to be the most powerful states in the world. And as the second failed, it got replaced by its quite similar little brother.

by bserge 5y ago

umvi 5y ago

China is pretty hostile toward minority opinions and they are quickly becoming the richest country in the world

jollybean 5y ago
'China' point is definitely fair, but they're nowhere near becoming rich in a GDP/capita basis. China is poorer than Mexico on a nominal and PPP basis. Poorer than Brazil on a nominal basis. They're going to have difficulty closing in on Chile, Latvia and Poland there. [1] On a PPP basis, it's much harder to fathom - they definitely have access to 'cheap goods' so of course their PPP basis is considerably higher, at the same time the quality of most things is very bad, the air is unbreathable in many places, outside major city centres services are problematic and civic dysfunction is still rife. So the that PPP calculation is tricky, and we know it's also leverage for Brazil just as well. But also note China does have serious economic 'leaders' that those other countries do not, and, China might treat ethnic and gay minorities poorly, but for women it's not the same. DiDi CEO is a female, and female leadership is normal there. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/
- l332mn 5y ago
  > at the same time the quality of most things is very bad What an ignorant thing to say. China generally produces high quality stuff, for their own population as well as for the entire world.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    I'm sorry that you're not aware of the reality of total lack of quality in many products and services in China, which is partly due to a function of lower costing, but also due to a general lack of industrial focus on quality, and particularly a lack of standards. And then gaslight others for pointing out the facts ... I work for a company that sells an electrical device, which has considerable standards applied in Europe and North America, and basically none in China. The competitive products to ours in China are essentially dangerous. They will start fires. We manufacture in China, and depending on the manufacturer, can usually make no assumptions about quality, other than it will be the lowest possible unless there is considerable oversight. Unbelievable, 'shocking' hacks and cutting corners, which we view as a matter of quality, they view as a matter of cost reduction. With the bigger factories that do business with big established brands, that's less of a problem because they're consistently building for markets with higher standards and requirements. For some thoughts on Food Safety [1][2] In China, in the year 2000, only 50% of the population had 'basic sanitation' services i.e. toilets. That's changed a lot, but there are still wide swaths of population literally without basic sanitation. The number is effectively 100% in almost every other semi-developed country. [3]. Even in 2015, 5% of the country still does not have access to basic water. [4] Chinese construction standards are de-facto low (they have regulations, just not very well met), so here are two videos that demonstrate some issues [5][6] - to be fair - this is all anecdotal, and China is a 'very large place'. You're surely going to find crap construction in every country, however, the anecdotes are quite excessive, and they are illustrative. Entire sections of homes, only a few years old completely falling apart, buildings falling down etc.. This affects major projects [7] - there are systematic problems with the quality of concrete that will come home to roost some day. As far as Air Quality, it's 'Very Bad' - the CEO of DiDi lamented this herself, indicating literally her children had difficulty breathing. Have a look [8] at the air quality literally at this moment in time. Up to 30% of China is, at this literal moment in time, breathing air that is 'hazardous'. And of course the political issues, censorship etc. - but those are harder to factor into an economic equation. So when calculating PPP - the material quality of goods does matter, things like 'air quality' aren't in that calculation but they very well do matter as they are a direct externalization of the system. China is a large, poor country and derives it's economic power mostly from it's size, not that much else. It's different than Brazil or India (other large, poor countries) in that it does have a number of economic champions. There's almost a 100% chance that China will soon have the largest economy in the world (by many measure it already does), but almost a 0% chance that we will see GDP/capita, even on a PPP basis, reach that of most modern nations, at least in our lifetimes. That is happening/will happen only for a subset of the population. [1] https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/07/chinas-food-safety-issues-are-worse-than-you-thought/ https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/07/chinas-food-safety-is... [2] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/fsn3.1281 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/fsn3.1281 [3] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-11-18/How-the-Toilet-Revolution-is-changing-China-LH2SCXCemQ/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-11-18/How-the-Toilet-Revolut... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... [5] https://digg.com/video/heres-a-disturbing-supercut-of-poorly-constructed-buildings-in-china-falling-apart https://digg.com/video/heres-a-disturbing-supercut-of-poorly... [6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E&ab_channel=ADVChina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E&ab_channel=ADVCh... [7] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1191896/shenzhen-construction-hold-after-alert-over-cheap-sand-concrete https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1191896/shenzhen-con... [8] https://aqicn.org/map/china/ https://aqicn.org/map/china/
ashtonkem 5y ago
Whether or not that growth is stable and entirely above board is an open matter of speculation here on a monthly basis.

avereveard 5y ago

Ah yes the poor and unstable Japan.

klyrs 5y ago

Women are neither a minority nor an opinion.

HKH2 5y ago
Is feminism not part of individuality?
- klyrs 5y ago
  Feminism is a philosophy, ideology, social movement, political movement, etc. Not all women are feminists, and not all feminists are women.
  - HKH2 5y ago
    So? I never said otherwise.

shakow 5y ago

> societies that treat minority opinions and individuality badly are poorer and less stable. Remind me what happened to the two states that, for the first, applied a simili-apartheid in half the country, and, for the second, held its population in an iron vice? Ah yes, they got to be the most powerful states in the world. And as the second failed, it got replaced by its quite similar little brother.