5 ms·

Or XMPP/Jabber.

approxim8ion 5y ago
XMPP is good, great even, but it has the same issue as email where you could interface with someone not using OMEMO or whatever your encryption scheme is and it would fall back to plaintext.
- MattJ100 5y ago
  The story is not quite the same for XMPP. For example, with XMPP you can determine ahead of time whether or not a contact has OMEMO. And clients configured to only use OMEMO won't "fall back".
  - approxim8ion 5y ago
    Apologies, clearly my understanding of XMPP is not the best. However, both points you mentioned are client dependent, right?
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      The fallback has to be client dependent. With E2EE the server can't decrypt messages. So there's no way for the server to decrypt the message to "downgrade" the channel. The client is also the node responsible for encrypting all messages for all recipients so it has to know if any of those recipients haven't done a key exchange.
    - MattJ100 5y ago
      Yes. It's client-dependent for all other systems too. For example Signal's end-to-end encryption only works if both parties are using Signal. For XMPP the difference is that there are multiple E2EE clients to choose from (see https://omemo.top/ https://omemo.top/ ). And if someone chooses to use a none E2EE client, you still have the choice whether to communicate with them without E2EE, if that's acceptable to you in the specific context (not all conversations demand E2EE).
- daneel_w 5y ago
  With XMPP that's thankfully up to you to decide through client preferences, and in this way your choice also propagates across XMPP servers.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
I’ve not seen XMPP used for store-and-forward messaging, like email, but I suppose it could be done. Every single XMPP client I’ve used sucks. Really suck. And there are always quirks setting up group chat and image sharing with XMPP servers.
- daneel_w 5y ago
  Roster/conversation capability (server holding message until recipient comes online) is a basic extension to XMPP. I don't think I've ever used a Jabber server not supporting it, and all the popular clients support it.
  - approxim8ion 5y ago
    I believe they mean the messages being held on a server even post delivery.
    - daneel_w 5y ago
      Yes. Same thing, same feature. This is what "conversation" mode is, also known as message archive management, or XEP-0313 (a standardized extension/feature of XMPP).
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Have you configured a server for that? I have. Not fun. Same with group chat.
    - daneel_w 5y ago
      Yes I have. It's a rather straight-forward and quick job with Prosody.
arcbyte 5y ago
I thought we all decided a decade ago that XMPP/Jabber was way too complicated to implement and not to use it?
- daneel_w 5y ago
  I don't think so. Though it is possible that you decided so on your own.

Or XMPP/Jabber.

XMPP is good, great even, but it has the same issue as email where you could interface with someone not using OMEMO or whatever your encryption scheme is and it would fall back to plaintext.

MattJ100 5y ago
The story is not quite the same for XMPP. For example, with XMPP you can determine ahead of time whether or not a contact has OMEMO. And clients configured to only use OMEMO won't "fall back".
- approxim8ion 5y ago
  Apologies, clearly my understanding of XMPP is not the best. However, both points you mentioned are client dependent, right?
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    The fallback has to be client dependent. With E2EE the server can't decrypt messages. So there's no way for the server to decrypt the message to "downgrade" the channel. The client is also the node responsible for encrypting all messages for all recipients so it has to know if any of those recipients haven't done a key exchange.
  - MattJ100 5y ago
    Yes. It's client-dependent for all other systems too. For example Signal's end-to-end encryption only works if both parties are using Signal. For XMPP the difference is that there are multiple E2EE clients to choose from (see https://omemo.top/ https://omemo.top/ ). And if someone chooses to use a none E2EE client, you still have the choice whether to communicate with them without E2EE, if that's acceptable to you in the specific context (not all conversations demand E2EE).
daneel_w 5y ago
With XMPP that's thankfully up to you to decide through client preferences, and in this way your choice also propagates across XMPP servers.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

I’ve not seen XMPP used for store-and-forward messaging, like email, but I suppose it could be done. Every single XMPP client I’ve used sucks. Really suck. And there are always quirks setting up group chat and image sharing with XMPP servers.

daneel_w 5y ago
Roster/conversation capability (server holding message until recipient comes online) is a basic extension to XMPP. I don't think I've ever used a Jabber server not supporting it, and all the popular clients support it.
- approxim8ion 5y ago
  I believe they mean the messages being held on a server even post delivery.
  - daneel_w 5y ago
    Yes. Same thing, same feature. This is what "conversation" mode is, also known as message archive management, or XEP-0313 (a standardized extension/feature of XMPP).
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Have you configured a server for that? I have. Not fun. Same with group chat.
  - daneel_w 5y ago
    Yes I have. It's a rather straight-forward and quick job with Prosody.

arcbyte 5y ago

I thought we all decided a decade ago that XMPP/Jabber was way too complicated to implement and not to use it?

daneel_w 5y ago
I don't think so. Though it is possible that you decided so on your own.