3 ms·

Because trans people deserve basic civil liberties? And who better to fight for them than the American Civil Liberties Union

fallingknife 5y ago
What rights do trans people not have?
- maxfurman 5y ago
  Being trans is not a protected class, so discrimination against trans people is legal in many states. On top of that, states keep passing unconstitutional anti-trans bills like NC's famous "bathroom bill," which someone has to fight in court
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Trans people have basic civil liberties already. You can't kill them, they can own property, they can work a job, they can rent a house without discrimination (legally at least), and so forth. Bathroom bills, on the other hand, require acceptance by everyone that they are who they say they are. And to put it simply, half of America (roughly speaking) doesn't find that convincing. To them, who are these people who would invade their right to bathroom privacy? Do their rights not matter? That's very different than a right to work a job or own property.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      >>To them, who are these people who would invade their right to bathroom privacy? Do their rights not matter? Can you please tell us which rights are being violated here exactly, I'm super curious. Most people just go into a stall, close the door, do their business and leave - who cares if they are trans or not. Do you peek into people's pants when you go into a public bathroom??
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        Maybe you are a mom who is changing an infant, and having a trans person (because they can sometimes be off-putting) enter the room is disturbing enough to be on a similar emotional level to a trans person being denied bathroom access. You might say, well whatever, she's transphobic - but you are prioritizing the trans' persons emotions over the mom's however you slice it.
        gambiting 5y ago
        >>Maybe you are a mom who is changing an infant I'm a father who has been changing infants in public bathrooms for quite a while and I'm sorry, but that's a crazy argument. Absolutely completely 10000% bonkers. >>(because they can sometimes be off-putting) Your chances of running into a non-trans off-putting person in a public bathroom are several orders of magnitude higher. If I'm changing my baby and a drunk dude stumbles into the bathroom I'm feeling all tense, but only because they might be an actual threat, even accidentally(stumble and trip or something). But hey, it's a public bathroom - should we ban people that make me uncomfortable in public places? Like, you're literally making the same argument as people saying that gay people shouldn't be allowed to display affection in public because it can make them uncomfortable - and why should you prioritise their emotions over your own?? Think of the children!!! /s >> and having a trans person enter the room is disturbing enough How. Please explain how is that disturbing. In fact how can you even tell someone is trans unless you 1) asked - and why would you in a public bathroom 2) looked them in the pants, and probably even that is not a good indicator. Do you imagine that all trans people look like men in drag or something? Have you ever met a trans person outside of a South Park episode? >>You might say, well whatever, she's transphobic She is transfobic in your specific example, because she's immediately judging someone without any reason. Same as if she was uncomfortable with a black lady walking in - we would call that racist, and I would say her emotional state about black people is unfortunately worth exactly jack shit and we shouldn't care about it.
    - Beldin 5y ago
      I would think the government making laws banning folks from using certain bathrooms is very much a civil liberties issue. But maybe it's common for US States to have laws telling men they are barred from women's toilets and vice versa, and everyone accepts those? To me that sounds preposterous, but in such a society I could see the discussion arise. TL;DR: if you substitute "trans" for "blacks" (or any other offensive term for a protected minority), does it become discrimination? If yes: it already was discrimination.
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        Your TLDR doesn't work always. If you substitute a million terms, "murderer community," "pedophile community," "MAGA community," "unvaccinated community," does it still work? You might still support trans rights, but can accept this isn't a very good defense.
    - hypothesis 5y ago
      > You can't kill them I welcome you to the real world: “trans panic defense”. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        And we're getting rid of it. But that's over the right not to get killed - not the same as having people accept you in the bathroom.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  At least in the US, there has been a flurry of anti-trans legislation passed in the last year: https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/anti-transgender-legislation-2021/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/anti-transgender-leg... And violence against trans people has also increased this year: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/14/us-trans-transgender-deaths-2021 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/14/us-trans-trans... Two years ago, many trans people were banned from serving in the US military. The ban was reversed earlier this year, but that's kind of the point: there are ongoing attacks against trans rights that are still happening right now and need attention. So that is why it gets the focus.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    As much as I want the government to stay out of bathroom policies, there's no recognized right to use whatever bathroom you want. Nor is there any right to join the military.
    - lavabiopsy 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean. Recognized by who? If you meant government officials, that's specifically the point: some may not recognize that it is a right, so the goal is to get them to recognize that it is.

fallingknife 5y ago

What rights do trans people not have?

maxfurman 5y ago
Being trans is not a protected class, so discrimination against trans people is legal in many states. On top of that, states keep passing unconstitutional anti-trans bills like NC's famous "bathroom bill," which someone has to fight in court
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Trans people have basic civil liberties already. You can't kill them, they can own property, they can work a job, they can rent a house without discrimination (legally at least), and so forth. Bathroom bills, on the other hand, require acceptance by everyone that they are who they say they are. And to put it simply, half of America (roughly speaking) doesn't find that convincing. To them, who are these people who would invade their right to bathroom privacy? Do their rights not matter? That's very different than a right to work a job or own property.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>To them, who are these people who would invade their right to bathroom privacy? Do their rights not matter? Can you please tell us which rights are being violated here exactly, I'm super curious. Most people just go into a stall, close the door, do their business and leave - who cares if they are trans or not. Do you peek into people's pants when you go into a public bathroom??
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      Maybe you are a mom who is changing an infant, and having a trans person (because they can sometimes be off-putting) enter the room is disturbing enough to be on a similar emotional level to a trans person being denied bathroom access. You might say, well whatever, she's transphobic - but you are prioritizing the trans' persons emotions over the mom's however you slice it.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        >>Maybe you are a mom who is changing an infant I'm a father who has been changing infants in public bathrooms for quite a while and I'm sorry, but that's a crazy argument. Absolutely completely 10000% bonkers. >>(because they can sometimes be off-putting) Your chances of running into a non-trans off-putting person in a public bathroom are several orders of magnitude higher. If I'm changing my baby and a drunk dude stumbles into the bathroom I'm feeling all tense, but only because they might be an actual threat, even accidentally(stumble and trip or something). But hey, it's a public bathroom - should we ban people that make me uncomfortable in public places? Like, you're literally making the same argument as people saying that gay people shouldn't be allowed to display affection in public because it can make them uncomfortable - and why should you prioritise their emotions over your own?? Think of the children!!! /s >> and having a trans person enter the room is disturbing enough How. Please explain how is that disturbing. In fact how can you even tell someone is trans unless you 1) asked - and why would you in a public bathroom 2) looked them in the pants, and probably even that is not a good indicator. Do you imagine that all trans people look like men in drag or something? Have you ever met a trans person outside of a South Park episode? >>You might say, well whatever, she's transphobic She is transfobic in your specific example, because she's immediately judging someone without any reason. Same as if she was uncomfortable with a black lady walking in - we would call that racist, and I would say her emotional state about black people is unfortunately worth exactly jack shit and we shouldn't care about it.
  - Beldin 5y ago
    I would think the government making laws banning folks from using certain bathrooms is very much a civil liberties issue. But maybe it's common for US States to have laws telling men they are barred from women's toilets and vice versa, and everyone accepts those? To me that sounds preposterous, but in such a society I could see the discussion arise. TL;DR: if you substitute "trans" for "blacks" (or any other offensive term for a protected minority), does it become discrimination? If yes: it already was discrimination.
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      Your TLDR doesn't work always. If you substitute a million terms, "murderer community," "pedophile community," "MAGA community," "unvaccinated community," does it still work? You might still support trans rights, but can accept this isn't a very good defense.
  - hypothesis 5y ago
    > You can't kill them I welcome you to the real world: “trans panic defense”. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      And we're getting rid of it. But that's over the right not to get killed - not the same as having people accept you in the bathroom.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lavabiopsy 5y ago
At least in the US, there has been a flurry of anti-trans legislation passed in the last year: https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/anti-transgender-legislation-2021/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/politics/anti-transgender-leg... And violence against trans people has also increased this year: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/14/us-trans-transgender-deaths-2021 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/14/us-trans-trans... Two years ago, many trans people were banned from serving in the US military. The ban was reversed earlier this year, but that's kind of the point: there are ongoing attacks against trans rights that are still happening right now and need attention. So that is why it gets the focus.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  As much as I want the government to stay out of bathroom policies, there's no recognized right to use whatever bathroom you want. Nor is there any right to join the military.
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean. Recognized by who? If you meant government officials, that's specifically the point: some may not recognize that it is a right, so the goal is to get them to recognize that it is.