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Consumers can also have a 100% reduction in methane production in cows by abstaining from purchasing cow products. We have an ongoing tragedy of animal abuse,

• eplanit 5y ago
  It'll take a couple of generations. Starting raising your kids on only Soylent Green type modern foods, and no meats; then, they'll grow up to find real meat disgusting.
  • dylan604 5y ago
    Or the first time they have real meat, they actually enjoy it. Similar to all of those parents that regulate their kid's sugar content by not allowing sodas/candy/etc. Once they go to a friend's house or school and get a taste, they do not spit it out in disgust.
    • yboris 5y ago
      Meat is rather different. Just about no kid in America would want to eat a dog. And there's nothing significantly different between a dog and a pig, other than our cultural attitudes towards them.
      • spijdar 5y ago
        As disgusting as I've been raised to find the idea, I suspect GP's point might hold have a grain of truth to dog meat, too. Some cultures eat dog -- I suspect if I ate dog meat, especially if I didn't know it was dog meat, I'd probably find it an okay meat. (that said, I don't believe the physiology of domestic dogs really lends itself to "good meat", certainly not as efficient as domestic pigs, so raising dogs as food doesn't really make sense)
        • Ekaros 5y ago
          I wonder if there is calculations where dogs would fall on axis of chicken, pork and beef. Probably around pork, but which side and what sort of diets would be allowable.
      • bryanlarsen 5y ago
        A dog, being carnivorous, is further up the food chain than a pig, so will have more accumulated toxins.
        • pm90 5y ago
          Pigs are omnivores.
          • bryanlarsen 5y ago
            Congratulations, you posted something that appears to rebut my post but doesn't actually contradict anything I said.
      • Ekaros 5y ago
        I think that is just because we haven't served it to them. Serve it a few years and then tell what it is. Could solve that issue. Also I wonder how well decent breed of dog compares to beef, chicken and pork from ecological and economic perspective. Only animals I'm against eating is hominids like apes, monkeys and humans. And that is only because of pathogens.
    • bryanlarsen 5y ago
      I have a friend who was raised Hindu but is himself lapsed. He has trouble eating beef, it upsets his digestive system.
    • Avicebron 5y ago
      Funny enough, this happened to me, I was raised without meat as a toddler very young child, tofu dogs, seitan, the whole nine yards. My parents from the Bay Area were militant about it...until I was about 5 at a family friends bbq, I had bacon for the first time, and as my dad tells it, that basically ended the whole family's vegetarianism it was so good. We all eat meat till this day... so maybe there is something instinctual about it.
  • poopypoopington 5y ago
    Or fruit and vegetables. The alternative to meat isn't Soylent Green, but of course you're just a troll you don't want to debate facts.
    • eplanit 5y ago
      Technically, Soylent Green was made of people (the plot of the movie). The premise of it though was Soylent (Blue, Yellow,...) foods were (supposed to have been) made from vegetable and seaweed protein -- which is not so much science fiction anymore w.r.t. Beyond Meat and other such products.
• hourislate 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm good. You go ahead but we're having a large steak barbecue tonight. Bought like 20 lbs of Ribeye and 10 lbs of chicken.
  • hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    Everybody gangsta 'till the climate changes.
    • hourislate 5y ago
      The world average temp has warmed .9°C since 1880.
      • bulletsvshumans 5y ago
        "I'm only going 20 miles an hour", said the teenager slamming on the gas.
        • EvilEy3 5y ago
          Yeah, yeah. Cool story, greenie.
    • Spivak 5y ago
      The individual punishment for anyone alive today will basically be nothing even in the worst cases, so while I agree with you, that argument doesn’t really work.
      • lucidguppy 5y ago
        Heart disease is the number one killer in the US currently. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929#heart-disease https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929#heart-disea... Which can be reversed by eating a plant based diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466936/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466936/ If not for the planet, then for your health.
• drewg123 5y ago
  I encourage people to try plant based "meat" substitutes. I have a vegan friend when encouraged me to try Impossible burger. I finally relented during the early days of the pandemic when I could not find ground beef one day at the store, and I have to say that I love it. I use it everywhere I'd have used ground beef (burgers, tacos, chili, etc). My cholesterol and blood sugar numbers have improved dramatically.
  • mc32 5y ago
    The only drawback I’d see is it’s ultra processed food, but it looks as though ftom your experience you experienced health improvements which outweigh Ann concern over ultra processing .
    • kiba 5y ago
      I looked up a comparison.[1] It seems that the only potential issue with an impossible burger is much more sodium. On the other hand, it actually contains fiber(3 grams). Apparently, Impossible meat are fortified with micronutrient as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but the problem with ultra processed food is not the processing per se, but the poor nutritional profiles. 1. https://www.cnet.com/health/nutrition/is-the-impossible-burger-healthier-than-beef/ https://www.cnet.com/health/nutrition/is-the-impossible-burg...
      • OrvalWintermute 5y ago
        I wanted to find some views on the the impossible/beyond GMO meat substitutes vs organic, grass-fed, which many contend is the gold standard for healthy meat, not regular feedlot / grain raised beef. Found a number of different perspectives [1], [2], [3] [4] [5] Most alarming was the presence of GMO, and soy & glyphosate connection alleged by testing from Moms Across America [6] found in both varieties (They are anti-GMO and anti-vaxx in the pre-covid term, using the original vaccine defintion). A vegan response by The Reasoned Vegan to these allegations and testing can be found at [7] which raised questions about the overblown testing hyperbole by Moms Across America. Consequently, I don't have a strong opinion on the veracity of the testing. However, given my biases towards organic, grass-fed and away from both soy, GMO, and feedlot/grain cattle, the Chiropractor Dr. Pompa best captured a nuanced view with which I concur. [8] I say this because I've known many vegans, and the one I dated expressed concerns around the negative implications of a heavy soy diet that led to her to cut out all soy, and head more towards a raw food diet. [1] https://blessingfalls.com/2019/08/14/plant-based-impossible-beyond-compared-to-grass-fed-beef/ https://blessingfalls.com/2019/08/14/plant-based-impossible-... [2] https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/lab-produced-meat-nutrients-differ-90-percent-grass-fed/ https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/lab-produced-mea... [3] https://www.eatthis.com/news-impossible-meat-ingredient-may-not-be-safe-lawsuit/ https://www.eatthis.com/news-impossible-meat-ingredient-may-... [4] https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanabandoim/2019/12/20/what-the-fdas-decision-about-soy-leghemoglobin-means-for-impossible-burger/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanabandoim/2019/12/20/what-the... [5] https://www.gmoscience.org/2019/06/25/rat-feeding-studies-suggest-the-impossible-burger-may-not-be-safe-to-eat/ https://www.gmoscience.org/2019/06/25/rat-feeding-studies-su... [6] https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/gmo_impossible_burger_positive_for_carcinogenic_glyphosate https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/gmo_impossible_burger_posi... [7] https://thereasonedvegan.com/2019/07/24/lies-about-roundup-in-the-impossible-burger/ https://thereasonedvegan.com/2019/07/24/lies-about-roundup-i... [8] https://drpompa.com/cellular-detox/meat-substitute-burgers-and-cancer-causing-glyphosate/ https://drpompa.com/cellular-detox/meat-substitute-burgers-a...
• macinjosh 5y ago
  This is the same logic those who say we should end teen pregnancy by teaching abstinence use and we all know how that works out.
  • Spivak 5y ago
    It’s also a huge coordination problem. Just casually get 300 million people to be on the same page and make a collective action against their own personal interest where there is no punishment for noncompliance, no feedback mechanism for rewards, and no guarantee it will have any effect. When the expected outcome is “you deny yourself pleasures you want and nothing changes” it’s pretty darn rational to just not bother.
    • afarrell 5y ago
      > 300 million Add Argentina’s population of 45 million to that. And then go ask Pakistanis how they would feel about a “don’t eat beef” law imposed on them.
• mythrwy 5y ago
  I wonder, from a cows point of view, if being eliminated as a species is preferable to being eaten one at a time at some point in their life cycle. Because this appears to be advocating for genocide. Or bovinecide (is that the right word)? <Edit>Apparently this is being taken as an argument for meat eating. It's not, I suspect we will lay off eating animal flesh as a species fairly soon. Just a theoretical question. Something to think about. Because simple "everyone should just XXX!" often have wider implications.
  • the8472 5y ago
    Wouldn't be the first time, nobody remembers the great horse genocide of 1908 either.
    • mythrwy 5y ago
      Equicide? At least people still kept some horses around for recreational riding etc. What will happen to cows?
      • lucidguppy 5y ago
        Wildlife now only makes up 5% of the biomass of mammals on planet earth. Where is the outcry for the thousands of species that go extinct. https://www.greenpeace.org/international/story/17788/how-much-of-earths-biomass-is-affected-by-humans/ https://www.greenpeace.org/international/story/17788/how-muc... Why don't people give up the meat until this has all been figured out?
  • yboris 5y ago
    It's so sad that even now people misunderstand the concerns of most people advocating reducing (or eliminating) meat from everyone's diet. In the grand scheme of things, "being eaten" (that is getting killed prematurely) isn't as great a problem as the severe abuse animals undergo before they are killed. If there was a choice to make, I'd rather never exist, than to be brought into existence on a factory farm, confined, abused, rape-inseminated, have my children be taken away, be hauled by a tractor because I can no longer stand up, etc. Please watch "Earthlings" to better understand the way humans treat animals: http://www.nationearth.com http://www.nationearth.com
• belorn 5y ago
  Changing culture in terms of food is a hard problem and one which would have a large range of benefits. Any country that has environmental issues from overpopulated or invasive species could benefit greatly if people hunted an ate that animal, but since they aren't part of the culture people don't and allow overpopulated or invasive species to continue being a problem. People are addicted to the cultural food that is popular in their local area. We see the same issue in the cultivating of mono-culture plants. Instead of using a wide range of different plants and land usage we instead see a overuse of the same plants being force fed artificial fertilizers in order to keep production high, with much of it ending up in the water creating eutrophication. This is a primary reason why a whole ocean, the Baltic sea, is turning into an underwater desert with a lack of oxygen so great that not even many bacterials like to live there. Artificial fertilizers has destroyed more way more land than nuclear fission and nuclear bombs has together. If we could change peoples culture in terms in what they eat we could not only have a 100% reduction in methane, but also fix the water pollution, biodiversity, usage of fossil fuels in the food chain, decrease land usage, fix overpopulation and remove invasive species, and feed even more people than we do today. It would also likely taste quite well, especially since taste is heavily influenced by culture.
  • collegeburner 5y ago
    Sure, in Texas a lot of us hunt and eat wild hogs as they're a nuisance. Javelina are native but can be a pest sometimes, so we eat them too (good in sausage).
    • belorn 5y ago
      Wild hogs tend to be part of the culture in most areas that I know has them. A useful sign for this is that such meat is generally more expensive to buy than beef, which illustrate the value that the culture puts on it as food. In contrast one can look at areas which has an overpopulation of seals. People don't eat the meat and the most common use is to generate oil, which is also not very useful in modern days. As such hunters are not very interested to spend time on it and overpopulation is allowed to continue even if it has a known negative impact on bio diversity in an local area. If one goes into the area of eutrophication, over population of non-cultural acceptable fish is very common. When government create initiatives to address the issue, the caught fish (many many tons of fish) get either turned into bio fuel or animal feed if the cost of transportation allows it. Hard to find a bigger waste of food than that, and it is purely a matter of culture.
• bequanna 5y ago
  Or, you could stop buying cheap, garbage meat that sometimes causes the problems you describe. Buy from a food coop, research the farm that supplies the meat. If you have the luxury to make informed choices, do that. Of course, good luck getting the poor or working class to do any of those things. They simply want cheap, appetizing calories.
  • Avicebron 5y ago
    I agree, it's worth it if you have the means. But looking as to why people are resorting to the cheapest most inhumane options is the root of the problem. I'm sure if everyone could afford premium, well sourced meat then the problem would be reduced, but the issue is that the poor and working class have been put into the position they are in and will choose the cheaper route out of necessity and where there is necessity, there is a market and someone willing to capitalize on it.
    • bequanna 5y ago
      It isn't just out of necessity. We don't really have much of a hunger problem in the US or most of the Western world. We need to stop approaching problems by trying to force people to change their habits and preferences. That isn't going to happen. Also, regardless of the arguments and hand waving from vegetarians, vegans, PETA, etc. we should accept that the vast majority of people are meant to and will always choose to eat meat as part of their diet. If you want to get people off of conventionally produced meat you need something that normal people actually consider to be appetizing. If fact, it would be even better if they didn't realize any changes were made. The replacement for meat that has any chance of succeeding is ...meat. Lab grown meat is the only solution with any chance of mass adoption. We can control the inputs, create something more appetizing, cheaper and maybe even healthier. It checks all the boxes vs. some unholy concoction of super processed ingredients marketed as a "meat substitute".
      • lucidguppy 5y ago
        Smoking was drastically reduced in the US after a public health push.
• fortran77 5y ago
  On a similar line of reasoning: 65% of Americans are obese or overweight. We can make significant progress toward reducing all sorts of environmental harm if people simple didn’t eat more food than they needed.
  • gautamdivgi 5y ago
    The obesity is most likely due to unhealthy carbs than meat. Eating grilled meat and salads will rarely get you obese.
    • fortran77 5y ago
      Yes, but there's still a lot of pollution associated with it: https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo2011151 https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo2011151
    • toomuchtodo 5y ago
      We should stop subsidizing corn production.
• supportlocal4h 5y ago
  My family raise one steer in our back yard. It feeds two families for a year. Do you consider this animal abuse? Do you consider it a source of groundwater or air pollution? I'm genuinely curious and somewhat open to being persuaded. It's hard for me to see it, but there could be an argument for it. Or perhaps you feel that those things are a product of industrial scale. If so, can you not conceive any solution that would involve less than 100% reduction?
  • mechagodzilla 5y ago
    Most of the ill effects come from industrial scale production, which (at least in the USA) probably covers 99% of production. Regarding your personal cow, it does produce (from quick googling) ~220 lbs of methane a year, which seems to trap ~85x as much heat as an equivalent amount of CO2 over a ~20 year timescale, or ~30x as much over a much longer timescale, so that's like releasing ~18700 lbs of CO2 each year in the short term. A gasoline powered car will produce about a pound of CO2 per mile driven, so you can think of your cow as being equivalent to having an extra car that drives 18.7k miles per year (or ~9.5k miles per family). Eating half a cow seems pretty close to driving an extra car.
    • captainredbeard 5y ago
      Apples to oranges - a pasture raised cow doesn't produce as much methane because the "rumen flora" differs between a grain-based and a forage-based diet. The bacterial population is so different between the two foods that if you switch a cow's feed to grain too quickly, the ensuing bloating can be life threatening. The bacteria digesting the corn is what produces the most methane. Unlike CO2, methane breaks down in the atmosphere so it's not an infinitely growing sink, it's a rolling window.
      • mechagodzilla 5y ago
        Brief research doesn't really appear to support that - grass fed cows seem to put on weight much slower, and therefore produce methane longer, and the methane of course degrades into CO2 (hence the 'effective' amount of CO2 over a given time period). But the differences between the two seem to be relatively small-ish (certainly 'different sized apples' rather than apples and oranges).
• cheese_goddess 5y ago
  It doesn't make sense to say that people have an "addiction to meat". We eat meat because it's a very nutritious food. We need to eat food to survive, to live, and to thrive. If you 're looking for an addiction that harms the environment, then look no further than right in front of your eyes. Right now, you are probably looking at the screen of a smart phone that you will most likely throw away for a new one before the end of the year. You don't need a new phone every year, nor do the many millions of people who buy a new one each year, and yet so they do. https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/12/11/right-to-repair-nathan-proctor https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/12/11/right-to-repair-...