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Sadly, I think we are beyond opt-out with any facial recognition. I recently showed[1] to my daughter (10) as teaching her python, how easy it is to build some

Sadly, I think we are beyond opt-out with any facial recognition. I recently showed[1] to my daughter (10) as teaching her python, how easy it is to build some basic facial recognition using modern libraries and models. I had it running with one of her pictures, and i just asked her to come in front of the computer for a second to check something out, and she was completely shocked when the video put her name below her face, and my name below my face. She was shocked, a bit curious, and a bit revolted. On the next day when I took her to school, I just showed the amount of cameras on the way, and in the mall. At first she thought that its not an issue, as every camera only sees locally around it, so they cant connect her journey, but then she realised someone can own many cameras. I think we need to invest much more into adversarial machine learning[2] and possibly form some sort of organization to fund it. (I hope it will be called move-78 as Lee Sedol's hand of god move against alpha go) [1]: https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/week-017.md#day-119-basics-of-basics https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxbazQ6wJlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxbazQ6wJlU

pilingual 5y ago
> she realised someone can own many cameras Or that the cameras are insecure, effectively public, and a motivated person or state could do the same.
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  haha i didnt tell her that yet, she is only 10 :D
  - telesilla 5y ago
    It's debatable how effective this is but CV Dazzle may just become a trend for youth. I'd support that but I'd expect to start seeing schools and commercial areas ban such practices. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/makeup/374929/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/makeu...
    - throwaway47292 5y ago
      thanks for the link! i immediately tried it https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/screenshots/game-119-a.png https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... its a screenshot of detecting me despite the paint, and i tried whole bunch of colors and etc to trick it that my eyes are not where they are, and it did not work, I think it was easier in 2014, seems you really need to hide your eyes now, and its gonna be quite annoying for bald people like me haha anyway, i updated the book as well, with the link thanks!
    - analognoise 5y ago
      It's not debatable. It's ineffective.
      - telesilla 5y ago
        I saw other reports of people who wear full face scarves or stickers of noses and eyes, are there better techniques that work?
    - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
      This article was precovid Covid masking with sunglasses and a cap make someone effectively anonymous. Masks are a big finger to the NSA.
      - throwaway47292 5y ago
        keep in mind mask alone is not enough https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/screenshots/game-119-b.png https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... and glasses + mask as well https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/screenshots/game-119-c.png https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... and this is https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition completely out of the box, no tuning or anything, just copy pasted the example
        deleted 5y ago
  - sologoub 5y ago
    Pretty incredible for 10 year old to make such projects and to then apply to the world around her! You must be so proud :)
    - throwaway47292 5y ago
      you have no idea :)
jfk13 5y ago
> I think we need to invest much more into adversarial machine learning That just becomes an ever-escalating arms race. We need to invest in political and social systems that regulate the use of technology, not imagine that we'll overcome the dystopian use of technology by applying yet more technology.
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  we should do both as political changes are incredibly slow, in the meantime we need to make it harder to collect you know very well no data will be deleted, in the modern 'data is money' mode of operation its not even on purpose, its just hard to delete from petabytes of hadoop garbage
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Why? Every time people make new technology to subvert the government, they must raise their tyranny in order to regain control. Encryption, for example. It denies the government information, evidence. There's nothing it can do about that. So will it criminalize encryption itself? Will it presume guilt if you refuse to decrypt? Will it ban free computers that run software not signed by the government? After enough iterations, we'll either end up with an uncontrollable population wielding ubiquitous subversive technology, or an omnipotent totalitarian state that defeats any attempt at subversion before they can develop. I hope for everyone's sake that the governments will discover their own limits before either outcome.
- NotSammyHagar 5y ago
  Don't you people read the classics? Neal Stephenson seems to write books 10 years ahead of time that predict all technologies (crypto, metaverse, etc). "Reamde" has multiple cool ideas (the miasma, basically our dystopian internet information sphere we live in today), but one of them is people walking down the street with glasses that have some kind of light device that shines on your face to confuse facial recognition.
aiisjustanif 5y ago
Ironically YCom just just backed this [1] and it is facial recognition in schools [2]. [1]: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safer-management https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safer-management [2]: https://www.safermgmt.com/ https://www.safermgmt.com/
- throwaway47292 5y ago
  hahaha i cant help but to laugh in despair look what we have built this is the internet we made for our children
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    Not just the internet. This is the world we have made for our children. It is highly distressing.
    - throwaway47292 5y ago
      I just feel somehow personally responsible for the way things went with the internet and surveillance capitalism. I remember in early 2000s how I used to download some programs[1] to pay me to watch ads. I didn't pay content creators anything, didnt donate, I didnt have money, but I could've spared some. I just didn't do anything to stop it. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_surf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_surf
      - aiisjustanif 5y ago
        We are not individually responsible, but we are collectively. The latter isn’t productive.
sjtindell 5y ago
Love the name move-78.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
I'm conflicted about your comment, I'm glad that you are teaching important things to your child at very young age and at the same time I'm sad that the child will now worry about the things which we didn't had to when we were kids.

pilingual 5y ago

> she realised someone can own many cameras Or that the cameras are insecure, effectively public, and a motivated person or state could do the same.

throwaway47292 5y ago
haha i didnt tell her that yet, she is only 10 :D
- telesilla 5y ago
  It's debatable how effective this is but CV Dazzle may just become a trend for youth. I'd support that but I'd expect to start seeing schools and commercial areas ban such practices. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/makeup/374929/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/makeu...
  - throwaway47292 5y ago
    thanks for the link! i immediately tried it https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/screenshots/game-119-a.png https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... its a screenshot of detecting me despite the paint, and i tried whole bunch of colors and etc to trick it that my eyes are not where they are, and it did not work, I think it was easier in 2014, seems you really need to hide your eyes now, and its gonna be quite annoying for bald people like me haha anyway, i updated the book as well, with the link thanks!
  - analognoise 5y ago
    It's not debatable. It's ineffective.
    - telesilla 5y ago
      I saw other reports of people who wear full face scarves or stickers of noses and eyes, are there better techniques that work?
  - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
    This article was precovid Covid masking with sunglasses and a cap make someone effectively anonymous. Masks are a big finger to the NSA.
    - throwaway47292 5y ago
      keep in mind mask alone is not enough https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/screenshots/game-119-b.png https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... and glasses + mask as well https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/screenshots/game-119-c.png https://github.com/jackdoe/programming-for-kids/blob/master/... and this is https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition https://github.com/ageitgey/face_recognition completely out of the box, no tuning or anything, just copy pasted the example
      - deleted 5y ago
- sologoub 5y ago
  Pretty incredible for 10 year old to make such projects and to then apply to the world around her! You must be so proud :)
  - throwaway47292 5y ago
    you have no idea :)

jfk13 5y ago

> I think we need to invest much more into adversarial machine learning That just becomes an ever-escalating arms race. We need to invest in political and social systems that regulate the use of technology, not imagine that we'll overcome the dystopian use of technology by applying yet more technology.

throwaway47292 5y ago
we should do both as political changes are incredibly slow, in the meantime we need to make it harder to collect you know very well no data will be deleted, in the modern 'data is money' mode of operation its not even on purpose, its just hard to delete from petabytes of hadoop garbage
matheusmoreira 5y ago
Why? Every time people make new technology to subvert the government, they must raise their tyranny in order to regain control. Encryption, for example. It denies the government information, evidence. There's nothing it can do about that. So will it criminalize encryption itself? Will it presume guilt if you refuse to decrypt? Will it ban free computers that run software not signed by the government? After enough iterations, we'll either end up with an uncontrollable population wielding ubiquitous subversive technology, or an omnipotent totalitarian state that defeats any attempt at subversion before they can develop. I hope for everyone's sake that the governments will discover their own limits before either outcome.
NotSammyHagar 5y ago
Don't you people read the classics? Neal Stephenson seems to write books 10 years ahead of time that predict all technologies (crypto, metaverse, etc). "Reamde" has multiple cool ideas (the miasma, basically our dystopian internet information sphere we live in today), but one of them is people walking down the street with glasses that have some kind of light device that shines on your face to confuse facial recognition.

aiisjustanif 5y ago

Ironically YCom just just backed this [1] and it is facial recognition in schools [2]. [1]: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safer-management https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safer-management [2]: https://www.safermgmt.com/ https://www.safermgmt.com/

throwaway47292 5y ago
hahaha i cant help but to laugh in despair look what we have built this is the internet we made for our children
- JohnFen 5y ago
  Not just the internet. This is the world we have made for our children. It is highly distressing.
  - throwaway47292 5y ago
    I just feel somehow personally responsible for the way things went with the internet and surveillance capitalism. I remember in early 2000s how I used to download some programs[1] to pay me to watch ads. I didn't pay content creators anything, didnt donate, I didnt have money, but I could've spared some. I just didn't do anything to stop it. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_surf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_surf
    - aiisjustanif 5y ago
      We are not individually responsible, but we are collectively. The latter isn’t productive.

sjtindell 5y ago

Love the name move-78.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

I'm conflicted about your comment, I'm glad that you are teaching important things to your child at very young age and at the same time I'm sad that the child will now worry about the things which we didn't had to when we were kids.