5 ms·

I was referring to this particular rationalization in the grandparent comment: >>This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured i

I was referring to this particular rationalization in the grandparent comment: >>This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured it means the taxpayers are covering the cost of their treatment. Given the vaccines can't provide herd immunity, the contagion argument for mandates is shaky too.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago
You have noted above that vaccines dramatically reduce hospitalization (and death).
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  That doesn't address my argument.
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    It’s not clear what your argument is. I agree with you that reducing medical expenses is being used by some as a justification for vaccine mandates. The data you provided also clearly shows vaccines reduce hospitalizations.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      Because you're engaging in bad faith. My argument is clear: >>We have never used this justification to institute invasive laws to prohibit habits that lead to obesity, or to prohibit drug-use or alcohol consumption for that matter The question is when we have a right to infringe upon another party's bodily autonomy. None of these vaccine mandate advocates would be calling for any type of infringement if it related to refraining from irresponsible behavior like over-eating, alcohol consumption, drug use, or high-risk sexual activity.
      - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        > None of these vaccine mandate advocates would be calling for any type of infringement if it related to refraining from irresponsible behavior like over-eating, alcohol consumption, drug use, or high-risk sexual activity. It’s a false equivalency. Addiction cannot, today, be cured with a shot.
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        Deterrence can very often shape behavior. Addictive behavior can be discouraged with legal disincentives. Sexual promiscuity involving high-risk intercourse can be discouraged with harsh prohibitions. Addiction exists on a spectrum, and those further from the extreme addiction end can often be discouraged through strong-arming social intervention. But for the vaccine mandate supporters, who oppose laws to hold accountable people who burden the healthcare system through over-eating, drug and alcohol abuse or high-risk sexual activity, virtue signalling is more important than saving lives, or punishing MAGA types is more important than respecting rights. Hence the inconsistency.
        jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        The war on drugs is a decades long deterrence campaign. We have more addicts than ever. It has failed.
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        The so-called progressive movement, which now fully backs the vaccine mandate, has NEVER been for the War on Drugs, even when it hadn't failed. And the kinds of behaviors that the political left regards as protected vices are not limited to those engaged in by addicts. For example, high-risk sexual activity that leads to HIV infection rates 100X higher among gay men than the general population, is not associated with any addiction, and yet the vaccine mandate supporters by and large would be the type that would be aghast at any suggestion of deterring such behavior with punitive government measures. So yes, the motivations are suspect.
ImPostingOnHN 5y ago
obesity doesn't put as tremendous a strain on the health system, but I figured this would be obvious look at the total ICU numbers before COVID (obesity still existed then), versus over the past year, to see the difference in strain also, your unsubstantiated claim that "the contagion argument for mandates is shaky too" seems to be itself shaky, as herd immunity is not required to make a nonzero positive impact which is good, because a nonzero percent of the population has tried their hardest to screw up every single covid preventative countermeasure, just so they can say 'oh, guess we didn't/can't achieve herd immunity, so now we should do nothing like we said and did all along'
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  A huge proportion of ICU cases have obesity as the dominant risk factor, INCLUDING COVID. And the costs of treating obesity related illnesses, like many heart disease, cancer and diabetes cases, are enormous, and dwarf the costs relating to COVID. Even in COVID's first year in the human population, when it spread like wildfire, heart disease and cancer killed far more people, and obesity is a contributing factor in a significant fraction of cases of these illnesses, particularly heart disease. >>as herd immunity is not required to make a nonzero positive impact Without herd immunity, the virus continues to circulate, until every one has contracted it. After they have contracted a COVID infection, they acquire far stronger immunity than provided by vaccination.
mbg721 5y ago
The real test of whether all of this is really medicine or politics would be if Donald Trump were making sweeping executive-branch mandates, how much support would they get?

jasonlaramburu 5y ago

You have noted above that vaccines dramatically reduce hospitalization (and death).

CryptoPunk 5y ago
That doesn't address my argument.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  It’s not clear what your argument is. I agree with you that reducing medical expenses is being used by some as a justification for vaccine mandates. The data you provided also clearly shows vaccines reduce hospitalizations.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    Because you're engaging in bad faith. My argument is clear: >>We have never used this justification to institute invasive laws to prohibit habits that lead to obesity, or to prohibit drug-use or alcohol consumption for that matter The question is when we have a right to infringe upon another party's bodily autonomy. None of these vaccine mandate advocates would be calling for any type of infringement if it related to refraining from irresponsible behavior like over-eating, alcohol consumption, drug use, or high-risk sexual activity.
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      > None of these vaccine mandate advocates would be calling for any type of infringement if it related to refraining from irresponsible behavior like over-eating, alcohol consumption, drug use, or high-risk sexual activity. It’s a false equivalency. Addiction cannot, today, be cured with a shot.
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        Deterrence can very often shape behavior. Addictive behavior can be discouraged with legal disincentives. Sexual promiscuity involving high-risk intercourse can be discouraged with harsh prohibitions. Addiction exists on a spectrum, and those further from the extreme addiction end can often be discouraged through strong-arming social intervention. But for the vaccine mandate supporters, who oppose laws to hold accountable people who burden the healthcare system through over-eating, drug and alcohol abuse or high-risk sexual activity, virtue signalling is more important than saving lives, or punishing MAGA types is more important than respecting rights. Hence the inconsistency.
        jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        The war on drugs is a decades long deterrence campaign. We have more addicts than ever. It has failed.
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        The so-called progressive movement, which now fully backs the vaccine mandate, has NEVER been for the War on Drugs, even when it hadn't failed. And the kinds of behaviors that the political left regards as protected vices are not limited to those engaged in by addicts. For example, high-risk sexual activity that leads to HIV infection rates 100X higher among gay men than the general population, is not associated with any addiction, and yet the vaccine mandate supporters by and large would be the type that would be aghast at any suggestion of deterring such behavior with punitive government measures. So yes, the motivations are suspect.

ImPostingOnHN 5y ago

obesity doesn't put as tremendous a strain on the health system, but I figured this would be obvious look at the total ICU numbers before COVID (obesity still existed then), versus over the past year, to see the difference in strain also, your unsubstantiated claim that "the contagion argument for mandates is shaky too" seems to be itself shaky, as herd immunity is not required to make a nonzero positive impact which is good, because a nonzero percent of the population has tried their hardest to screw up every single covid preventative countermeasure, just so they can say 'oh, guess we didn't/can't achieve herd immunity, so now we should do nothing like we said and did all along'

CryptoPunk 5y ago
A huge proportion of ICU cases have obesity as the dominant risk factor, INCLUDING COVID. And the costs of treating obesity related illnesses, like many heart disease, cancer and diabetes cases, are enormous, and dwarf the costs relating to COVID. Even in COVID's first year in the human population, when it spread like wildfire, heart disease and cancer killed far more people, and obesity is a contributing factor in a significant fraction of cases of these illnesses, particularly heart disease. >>as herd immunity is not required to make a nonzero positive impact Without herd immunity, the virus continues to circulate, until every one has contracted it. After they have contracted a COVID infection, they acquire far stronger immunity than provided by vaccination.

mbg721 5y ago

The real test of whether all of this is really medicine or politics would be if Donald Trump were making sweeping executive-branch mandates, how much support would they get?