5 ms·

I don't understand how this works in favour of Apple. Imagine you had paid with any other third-party payment provider, e.g. Paypal. Wouldn't you have been able

by woko 5y ago

I don't understand how this works in favour of Apple. Imagine you had paid with any other third-party payment provider, e.g. Paypal. Wouldn't you have been able to cancel the recurring payment just as easily? Even with a CC payment, wouldn't you be able to cancel the recurring payment by going through the account options on your bank website?

msbarnett 5y ago
> Even with a CC payment, wouldn't you be able to cancel the recurring payment by going through the account options on your bank website? No? I don't know where you're located, but I'm not aware of any North American banks that offer anything of the sort. Typically the only thing you could do through your bank is dispute a charge after the fact and request a chargeback. The end of that process may or may not see the company in question left unable to charge you again, but it's not a "cancellation of recurring payment" process in any normal sense, and it's going to require some phone calls and form-filling. Companies will famously decline to offer subscription cancellation options on their website, leaving consumers with the only option of calling them on the phone and facing a hard sell when attempting to cancel. Apple's subscription cancellation options are night-and-day better than the status quo.
- gambiting 5y ago
  Here in UK if a company wants to charge you regularly for anything they have to start something called a "direct debit" on your bank account - then they can withdraw money from your account whenever they see fit. The thing about direct debits though is that you can cancel them for any reason within few clicks on your account website, and all charges are reversible without having to provide a reason - I just call my bank and say I want to reverse a direct debit charge X, done. I know the American system is bad, but it's not like the only system in the world. There are other ways of doing this, without going through Apple's closed ecosystem.
  - zajio1am 5y ago
    > Here in UK if a company wants to charge you regularly for anything they have to start something called a "direct debit" on your bank account - then they can withdraw money from your account whenever they see fit Here in Czechia most periodic payments are paid through either direct debit or standing order. Direct debit payments require apriori permission (enabled for each recipient max sum per period), which could be revoked at any time.
  - znpy 5y ago
    Yup, same here in Italy. The infuriating thing is that some american users think that since they have to endure crappy banking then everybody else on the planet must also be enduring the same thing, and that's not the case. I must explicitly approve any direct debit subscription before it can withdraw money from my balance and I can kill a subscription from my home banking (I'm an Unicredit customer btw). That's actually how I made sure my gym subscription was terminated for good.
    - nixass 5y ago
      > That's actually how I made sure my gym subscription was terminated for good. If for nothing else, the angry Americans downvoted you to hell for this
      - FDSGSG 5y ago
        Very likely that doing this will still mess up your credit ratings and result in calls from debt collectors, even if you're in Europe.
        gambiting 5y ago
        Over a 10 euro/month subscription? Zero chance. Even in Europe.
        FDSGSG 5y ago
        There are also 720 euro/month gym subscriptions in Europe, and probably everything in between. Just a 30 euro/month subscription would quickly add up to amounts worth collecting, although I've even had a debt collector call me over a debt of 2 something euros.
- darkhelmet 5y ago
  Precisely this. And I realize it's not the same around the world, but recurring payments get really bad in large parts of the world. If you, the customer, want to cancel a recurring payment and you're using ApplePay, it's one button and done. If you're using 3rd party billing from $randomcompany, it usually works by you, the customer, trying to find who to call and spending a substantial portion of your time being badgered by customer retention people. They're set up to make it as difficult as possible because they know that they can make people give in if the effort is too high. This is a huge part of the reason why companies want the second option - they want to own the customer, and for you to have to get permission from them to stop belonging to them.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    I've had to deal with this type of thing in the past. Not often. What has worked for me was saying something like the following right off the bat when they try to keep me (but I guess it only works if not all of us do it :): I get it. You are doing your job. You have a script. You have to try and keep me. It's not gonna work on me. Skip to the part of the script where you begrudgingly give in and cancel the service for me and you can take your next call quickly.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Which is strange considering that both Mastercard and Visa require banks to offer this feature, and provide services to make it easy to implement. I suspect if you called up your bank and asked to block recurring payments from a specific merchant, they could do it. It’s just not advertised very well, and the implementation aren’t always granular enough (block a merchant using Stripe for example, can result in all Stripe payments being blocked).
  - gutnor 5y ago
    I guess that's because they cancel the payment, not the subscription. If you cancel Netflix that way, Netflix isn't told. They will just realise the payment failed and block your account until you upgrade your payment details. Apple system cancel the subscription, just like if you go on Netflix account and cancel. The blocking of the payment just happen as a consequence of the subscription to the service being cancelled. Of course maybe time changed. Like shop returns 20 years ago, it was badly seen to pick load of stuff and bring most of the stuff back. Nowadays shops expect it and during Sales period they will ask you to do it that way rather than jam the few fitting rooms.
- commoner 5y ago
  In PayPal, any recurring payments and subscriptions can easily be cancelled on the centralized "Pre-approved payments" page: https://www.paypal.com/va/smarthelp/article/how-do-i-cancel-a-recurring-payment,-subscription,-or-automatic-billing-agreement-i-have-with-a-merchant-faq1067 https://www.paypal.com/va/smarthelp/article/how-do-i-cancel-... The process can be done in the PayPal app, or on any web browser. It is just as easy as Apple's process, and PayPal doesn't charge 30%. PayPal is not a bank, however.
  - eigen 5y ago
    looks like Paypal charges $0.49 + 3.49% for Paypal checkout. so seems like more expensive in some cases. https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees
    - commoner 5y ago
      From the same page, micropayments on PayPal have an alternative fee structure of 4.99% + $0.09. PayPal is less expensive than Apple's 30% fee in every scenario.
- ticviking 5y ago
  Usually the easiest way to solve this is to send a written letter, registered mail for like $1.50 or whatever it is now. Then you dispute the charge each time. It's a pain, but it's a bigger pain for them and costs them more than it does you. Especially once you've documented with that receipt of a registered letter.
- chillwaves 5y ago
  I just report my card as stolen and call it a day, but I have noticed sometimes it does not stop recurring payments.
- bradknowles 5y ago
  This is why I use privacy.com. Each company or subscription gets their own personal dedicated credit card number, and if I don’t like their service, I can pause or cancel the card. And if someone else tries to charge that card, then I know who leaked it. Done.
- tacocataco 5y ago
  My bank let's me make a "temporary credit card" with only so much money on it. Good luck squeezing blood from this stone
FDSGSG 5y ago
>Even with a CC payment, wouldn't you be able to cancel the recurring payment by going through the account options on your bank website? High quality bait right here.
baxtr 5y ago
At least with my European CC I need to fill out a PDF, put a signature on it and upload. Not the level of convenience I am used to. Maybe it’s different elsewhere.

by woko 5y ago

msbarnett 5y ago

> Even with a CC payment, wouldn't you be able to cancel the recurring payment by going through the account options on your bank website? No? I don't know where you're located, but I'm not aware of any North American banks that offer anything of the sort. Typically the only thing you could do through your bank is dispute a charge after the fact and request a chargeback. The end of that process may or may not see the company in question left unable to charge you again, but it's not a "cancellation of recurring payment" process in any normal sense, and it's going to require some phone calls and form-filling. Companies will famously decline to offer subscription cancellation options on their website, leaving consumers with the only option of calling them on the phone and facing a hard sell when attempting to cancel. Apple's subscription cancellation options are night-and-day better than the status quo.

gambiting 5y ago
Here in UK if a company wants to charge you regularly for anything they have to start something called a "direct debit" on your bank account - then they can withdraw money from your account whenever they see fit. The thing about direct debits though is that you can cancel them for any reason within few clicks on your account website, and all charges are reversible without having to provide a reason - I just call my bank and say I want to reverse a direct debit charge X, done. I know the American system is bad, but it's not like the only system in the world. There are other ways of doing this, without going through Apple's closed ecosystem.
- zajio1am 5y ago
  > Here in UK if a company wants to charge you regularly for anything they have to start something called a "direct debit" on your bank account - then they can withdraw money from your account whenever they see fit Here in Czechia most periodic payments are paid through either direct debit or standing order. Direct debit payments require apriori permission (enabled for each recipient max sum per period), which could be revoked at any time.
- znpy 5y ago
  Yup, same here in Italy. The infuriating thing is that some american users think that since they have to endure crappy banking then everybody else on the planet must also be enduring the same thing, and that's not the case. I must explicitly approve any direct debit subscription before it can withdraw money from my balance and I can kill a subscription from my home banking (I'm an Unicredit customer btw). That's actually how I made sure my gym subscription was terminated for good.
  - nixass 5y ago
    > That's actually how I made sure my gym subscription was terminated for good. If for nothing else, the angry Americans downvoted you to hell for this
    - FDSGSG 5y ago
      Very likely that doing this will still mess up your credit ratings and result in calls from debt collectors, even if you're in Europe.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Over a 10 euro/month subscription? Zero chance. Even in Europe.
        FDSGSG 5y ago
        There are also 720 euro/month gym subscriptions in Europe, and probably everything in between. Just a 30 euro/month subscription would quickly add up to amounts worth collecting, although I've even had a debt collector call me over a debt of 2 something euros.
darkhelmet 5y ago
Precisely this. And I realize it's not the same around the world, but recurring payments get really bad in large parts of the world. If you, the customer, want to cancel a recurring payment and you're using ApplePay, it's one button and done. If you're using 3rd party billing from $randomcompany, it usually works by you, the customer, trying to find who to call and spending a substantial portion of your time being badgered by customer retention people. They're set up to make it as difficult as possible because they know that they can make people give in if the effort is too high. This is a huge part of the reason why companies want the second option - they want to own the customer, and for you to have to get permission from them to stop belonging to them.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  I've had to deal with this type of thing in the past. Not often. What has worked for me was saying something like the following right off the bat when they try to keep me (but I guess it only works if not all of us do it :): I get it. You are doing your job. You have a script. You have to try and keep me. It's not gonna work on me. Skip to the part of the script where you begrudgingly give in and cancel the service for me and you can take your next call quickly.
avianlyric 5y ago
Which is strange considering that both Mastercard and Visa require banks to offer this feature, and provide services to make it easy to implement. I suspect if you called up your bank and asked to block recurring payments from a specific merchant, they could do it. It’s just not advertised very well, and the implementation aren’t always granular enough (block a merchant using Stripe for example, can result in all Stripe payments being blocked).
- gutnor 5y ago
  I guess that's because they cancel the payment, not the subscription. If you cancel Netflix that way, Netflix isn't told. They will just realise the payment failed and block your account until you upgrade your payment details. Apple system cancel the subscription, just like if you go on Netflix account and cancel. The blocking of the payment just happen as a consequence of the subscription to the service being cancelled. Of course maybe time changed. Like shop returns 20 years ago, it was badly seen to pick load of stuff and bring most of the stuff back. Nowadays shops expect it and during Sales period they will ask you to do it that way rather than jam the few fitting rooms.
commoner 5y ago
In PayPal, any recurring payments and subscriptions can easily be cancelled on the centralized "Pre-approved payments" page: https://www.paypal.com/va/smarthelp/article/how-do-i-cancel-a-recurring-payment,-subscription,-or-automatic-billing-agreement-i-have-with-a-merchant-faq1067 https://www.paypal.com/va/smarthelp/article/how-do-i-cancel-... The process can be done in the PayPal app, or on any web browser. It is just as easy as Apple's process, and PayPal doesn't charge 30%. PayPal is not a bank, however.
- eigen 5y ago
  looks like Paypal charges $0.49 + 3.49% for Paypal checkout. so seems like more expensive in some cases. https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees
  - commoner 5y ago
    From the same page, micropayments on PayPal have an alternative fee structure of 4.99% + $0.09. PayPal is less expensive than Apple's 30% fee in every scenario.
ticviking 5y ago
Usually the easiest way to solve this is to send a written letter, registered mail for like $1.50 or whatever it is now. Then you dispute the charge each time. It's a pain, but it's a bigger pain for them and costs them more than it does you. Especially once you've documented with that receipt of a registered letter.
chillwaves 5y ago
I just report my card as stolen and call it a day, but I have noticed sometimes it does not stop recurring payments.
bradknowles 5y ago
This is why I use privacy.com. Each company or subscription gets their own personal dedicated credit card number, and if I don’t like their service, I can pause or cancel the card. And if someone else tries to charge that card, then I know who leaked it. Done.
tacocataco 5y ago
My bank let's me make a "temporary credit card" with only so much money on it. Good luck squeezing blood from this stone

FDSGSG 5y ago

>Even with a CC payment, wouldn't you be able to cancel the recurring payment by going through the account options on your bank website? High quality bait right here.

baxtr 5y ago

At least with my European CC I need to fill out a PDF, put a signature on it and upload. Not the level of convenience I am used to. Maybe it’s different elsewhere.