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> Letting covid 'rip' through the remaining unvaccinated population Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? You may disagree with the

> Letting covid 'rip' through the remaining unvaccinated population Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? You may disagree with the conclusion of their dubious risk analyses, but if you choose not to get vaccinated then all bets are off. Or is it that the risk that the unvaccinated pose to the vaccinated are so high that they warrant strong arm solutions?

jasonlaramburu 5y ago
The more unvaccinated people there are, the more cases of severe covid there will be. This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured it means the taxpayers are covering the cost of their treatment. Rampant spread also promotes the emergence of new variants.It’s not only a personal decision— declining the shot negatively impacts your community, workplace and the country as a whole.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  We have never used this justification to institute invasive laws to prohibit habits that lead to obesity, or to prohibit drug-use or alcohol consumption for that matter. And such laws would always come from the social conservative right, if they were ever instituted, not the people advocating vaccine mandates. Now socialization of medical expenses is being used to rationalize institutionalized discrimination against the unvaccinated, because it aligns with a particular political tribe's agenda. A tribe that also advocates the socialization of medical expenses.
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    > We have never used this justification to institute invasive laws to prohibit habits that lead to obesity, or to prohibit drug-use or alcohol consumption for that matter. Correct, these things are not contagious to others.
    - disneygibson 5y ago
      There is significant research indicating that these things are socially contagious.
      - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        They are not equivalent. There is zero evidence you can catch obesity or alcoholism in an elevator from someone you don’t know. And in the context of workplace safety, an alcoholic cannot show up for work drunk.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      I was referring to this particular rationalization in the grandparent comment: >>This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured it means the taxpayers are covering the cost of their treatment. Given the vaccines can't provide herd immunity, the contagion argument for mandates is shaky too.
      - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        You have noted above that vaccines dramatically reduce hospitalization (and death).
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        That doesn't address my argument.
        jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        It’s not clear what your argument is. I agree with you that reducing medical expenses is being used by some as a justification for vaccine mandates. The data you provided also clearly shows vaccines reduce hospitalizations.
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
> Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? Yes. And personally, as callous as this is, I give zero shits about COVID deaths of people who choose to not vaccinate, though I feel terrible for their family members that got vaccinated and couldn't convince them to vaccinate because right-wing media has poisoned their minds. > Or is it that the risk that the unvaccinated pose to the vaccinated are so high that they warrant strong arm solutions? This question is highly subjective. The vaccines are very effective at preventing spread, hospitalization, and death, but not 100%. Look at the statistics coming from any major hospital, and you'll see the trend that around 95% of the people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated. The more people are vaccinated, the slower the spread, and the lower total number of breakthrough infections and breakthrough disease (Note: There's a difference between the two!). Back to your question of if the risk is so high to warrant strong-arm solutions...Currently, I'd say no. But how long until Delta evolves into an even worse form that the current vaccines do nothing for?
dimator 5y ago
> Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? You may disagree with the conclusion of their dubious risk analyses, but if you choose not to get vaccinated then all bets are off. This is the crux of it. They've made the decision, but when they fill up ICU beds and prevent sick or injured people from getting the quality of care that hospitals can provide, then their decision affects others (and this is not a hypothetical, it is happening daily). If unvaccinated people agree to sit home and not go into a hospital when they can't breathe, that would demonstrate that they're living with the consequences of their decision.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  If that's really the issue (it's not), then this can be addressed far more directly, by penalizing the unvaccinated when allocating ICU beds during shortages. But please be consistent and also penalize those who deliberately engage in other actions that put them at risk of needing medical care, like the obese, or those who abuse drugs and alcohol. What bothers me is the inconsistency. It's opportunistically seizing on the burden that choosing to not get vaccinated places on medical resources, in a way that the typical vaccine mandate supporter would never dream of doing with other high-risk behavior (e.g. men who engage in extensive high-risk intercourse with other men, making them 100X more likely to contract many STDs, including HIV). The political left's backing of the vaccine mandate is thoroughly unprincipled.
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    There is no safe, free and effective vaccine against HIV, so these are not equivalent.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      That doesn't address my point.
      - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        It’s a hypothetical. It also requires infringing on the rights of a protected class. Covid vaccines are being mandated for all.
ddingus 5y ago
It is a shared risk. Overwhelming the hospitals puts everyone at greater risk. So any cases means more mutations more quickly. This too is a shared risk. There just is not any way around all this. The human condition is not an individual affair.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago

The more unvaccinated people there are, the more cases of severe covid there will be. This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured it means the taxpayers are covering the cost of their treatment. Rampant spread also promotes the emergence of new variants.It’s not only a personal decision— declining the shot negatively impacts your community, workplace and the country as a whole.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
We have never used this justification to institute invasive laws to prohibit habits that lead to obesity, or to prohibit drug-use or alcohol consumption for that matter. And such laws would always come from the social conservative right, if they were ever instituted, not the people advocating vaccine mandates. Now socialization of medical expenses is being used to rationalize institutionalized discrimination against the unvaccinated, because it aligns with a particular political tribe's agenda. A tribe that also advocates the socialization of medical expenses.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  > We have never used this justification to institute invasive laws to prohibit habits that lead to obesity, or to prohibit drug-use or alcohol consumption for that matter. Correct, these things are not contagious to others.
  - disneygibson 5y ago
    There is significant research indicating that these things are socially contagious.
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      They are not equivalent. There is zero evidence you can catch obesity or alcoholism in an elevator from someone you don’t know. And in the context of workplace safety, an alcoholic cannot show up for work drunk.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    I was referring to this particular rationalization in the grandparent comment: >>This puts tremendous strain on the hospital system, and if they’re uninsured it means the taxpayers are covering the cost of their treatment. Given the vaccines can't provide herd immunity, the contagion argument for mandates is shaky too.
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      You have noted above that vaccines dramatically reduce hospitalization (and death).
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        That doesn't address my argument.
        jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        It’s not clear what your argument is. I agree with you that reducing medical expenses is being used by some as a justification for vaccine mandates. The data you provided also clearly shows vaccines reduce hospitalizations.
        CryptoPunk 5y ago

Sohcahtoa82 5y ago

> Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? Yes. And personally, as callous as this is, I give zero shits about COVID deaths of people who choose to not vaccinate, though I feel terrible for their family members that got vaccinated and couldn't convince them to vaccinate because right-wing media has poisoned their minds. > Or is it that the risk that the unvaccinated pose to the vaccinated are so high that they warrant strong arm solutions? This question is highly subjective. The vaccines are very effective at preventing spread, hospitalization, and death, but not 100%. Look at the statistics coming from any major hospital, and you'll see the trend that around 95% of the people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated. The more people are vaccinated, the slower the spread, and the lower total number of breakthrough infections and breakthrough disease (Note: There's a difference between the two!). Back to your question of if the risk is so high to warrant strong-arm solutions...Currently, I'd say no. But how long until Delta evolves into an even worse form that the current vaccines do nothing for?

dimator 5y ago

> Aren't unvaccinated individuals the ones who made this decision? You may disagree with the conclusion of their dubious risk analyses, but if you choose not to get vaccinated then all bets are off. This is the crux of it. They've made the decision, but when they fill up ICU beds and prevent sick or injured people from getting the quality of care that hospitals can provide, then their decision affects others (and this is not a hypothetical, it is happening daily). If unvaccinated people agree to sit home and not go into a hospital when they can't breathe, that would demonstrate that they're living with the consequences of their decision.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
If that's really the issue (it's not), then this can be addressed far more directly, by penalizing the unvaccinated when allocating ICU beds during shortages. But please be consistent and also penalize those who deliberately engage in other actions that put them at risk of needing medical care, like the obese, or those who abuse drugs and alcohol. What bothers me is the inconsistency. It's opportunistically seizing on the burden that choosing to not get vaccinated places on medical resources, in a way that the typical vaccine mandate supporter would never dream of doing with other high-risk behavior (e.g. men who engage in extensive high-risk intercourse with other men, making them 100X more likely to contract many STDs, including HIV). The political left's backing of the vaccine mandate is thoroughly unprincipled.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  There is no safe, free and effective vaccine against HIV, so these are not equivalent.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    That doesn't address my point.
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      It’s a hypothetical. It also requires infringing on the rights of a protected class. Covid vaccines are being mandated for all.

ddingus 5y ago

It is a shared risk. Overwhelming the hospitals puts everyone at greater risk. So any cases means more mutations more quickly. This too is a shared risk. There just is not any way around all this. The human condition is not an individual affair.