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And? Firefox is not community based either. That's why we have all sorts of things like Pocket integration and constant pointless UI churn that we don't want.

And? Firefox is not community based either. That's why we have all sorts of things like Pocket integration and constant pointless UI churn that we don't want. Chromium is a whole 5 million lines of code and meanwhile the Linux kernel is 30 million. If Chromium ever stops serving the community, we'll just take it over. Chrome itself is absolutely fine with me. I wouldn't use anything else right now and I love only having to test with Chrome and Safari. Anyway, it doesn't matter what the tiny loud minority of Firefox users think. They've already lost.

sodality2 5y ago
At least Firefox is OSS. I can TELL if there's a backdoor. With Vivaldi? I don't. Will be reinstalling clean Arch after this decision. Also, your tone about Chromium is precisely going to create another IE. Screw this monoculture of browsers. Chrome did the FLoC fiasco, this is proof they can't be trusted.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  And Chromium isn't OSS?? Wrong. Chromium is a cross-platform OSS browser engine. IE was effectively a single platform closed source browser. FLoC fiasco? You mean a feature you can turn off, that only exists in Chrome and not every browser that uses Chromium? "Every major browser that uses the open source Chromium project has declined to use it..." [0] Gee, it really sounds like Google is in complete control of all other browsers that use Chromium right? [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/16/22387492/google-floc-ad-tech-privacy-browsers-brave-vivaldi-edge-mozilla-chrome-safari https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/16/22387492/google-floc-ad-t...
  - sodality2 5y ago
    >"Every major browser that uses the open source Chromium project has declined to use it..." My point is that it should not be something that has to be removed. In fact, I'm vehemently against the idea of it in general. Are we going to start using Chromium with a list of patches to remove all the privacy violations? That's still giving up to the monoculture, though I suppose the privacy violations are assuaged. Why not just use Firefox? Open source? Please explain why it's better to use Vivaldi. I'm arguing against it, but Manjaro must justify why the FOSS spirit of Manjaro was broken, and what possible benefit (metaphorical, or $$$ literal) would be gained by switching to Vivaldi. >Gee, it really sounds like Google is in complete control of all other browsers that use Chromium right? In complete control of Chromium.
    - wayneftw 5y ago
      > My point is that it should not be something that has to be removed. And it isn't a feature at all if you use any other Chromium based browser (not Chrome) like Brave, Edge or Vivaldi. > Please explain why it's better to use Vivaldi. I didn't say that you should use Vivaldi. Nope. I said that there are plenty of non-Chrome Chromium browsers to use in response to someone saying that there is a "one browser rules all" situation. There's not. There's not even a "one browser-engine to rule them all" situation given that Safari (WebKit) has a very sizable market share. > In complete control of Chromium. Yep and Linus Torvalds is in complete control of the Linux kernel, yet we have hundreds of distros that all do things differently. And it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Here's Microsoft discussing their decision to not fork Chromium, because they don't have to - "We have chosen not to fork since we don’t want to fragment the community, but our infrastructure does allow us to maintain patches for cases where we have a different point of view on individual changes (we talked about the webRequest/Manifest V3 changes in a couple other places. In general we plan to upstream our web platform improvements to the Chromium project. " [0] [0] https://windowsreport.com/chromiums-edge-fork/ https://windowsreport.com/chromiums-edge-fork/
      - sodality2 5y ago
        >And it isn't a feature at all if you use any other Chromium based browser (not Chrome) like Brave, Edge or Vivaldi. I am referring to the Chromium open source project. Not the derivatives. You can argue that everyone removes it, but that further shows how unwanted it is. >I said that there are plenty of non-Chrome Chromium browsers to use in response to someone saying that there is a "one browser rules all" situation I was actually referring to the engine, yeah. >There's not even a "one browser-engine to rule them all" situation given that Safari (WebKit) has a very sizable market share. Still very small. Less than 20%? Besides, a majority of that is iOS devices, where this engine is FORCED upon you... >Yep and Linus Torvalds is in complete control of the Linux kernel, yet we have hundreds of distros that all do things differently. The difference is the lack of corporate malice, which I classify FLoC under (which was added to Chromium, regardless of whether or not you say others have removed it). >And it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Here's Microsoft discussing their decision to not fork Chromium, because they don't have to - Not particularly sure what you mean here - this is just showing that edge is also contributing to the browser monoculture by still using Chromium and not even forking it. Though I suppose that's a little weak argument because patches are still applied.
- sk2020 5y ago
  Have you ever audited FF source? That’s a pretty big code base to exhaustively determine unwanted behavior does not exist.
  - sodality2 5y ago
    Trust in the developers, because if there was ever an incentive to backdoor it, the source is publicly available. Also, I have skimmed it when I was bored. I think I got a few thousand lines of code in. But surely this means nothing because I didn't understand most of it- it just didn't "look" malicious. Still, I will always take FOSS and properly licensed over Vivaldi.

sodality2 5y ago

At least Firefox is OSS. I can TELL if there's a backdoor. With Vivaldi? I don't. Will be reinstalling clean Arch after this decision. Also, your tone about Chromium is precisely going to create another IE. Screw this monoculture of browsers. Chrome did the FLoC fiasco, this is proof they can't be trusted.

wayneftw 5y ago
And Chromium isn't OSS?? Wrong. Chromium is a cross-platform OSS browser engine. IE was effectively a single platform closed source browser. FLoC fiasco? You mean a feature you can turn off, that only exists in Chrome and not every browser that uses Chromium? "Every major browser that uses the open source Chromium project has declined to use it..." [0] Gee, it really sounds like Google is in complete control of all other browsers that use Chromium right? [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/16/22387492/google-floc-ad-tech-privacy-browsers-brave-vivaldi-edge-mozilla-chrome-safari https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/16/22387492/google-floc-ad-t...
- sodality2 5y ago
  >"Every major browser that uses the open source Chromium project has declined to use it..." My point is that it should not be something that has to be removed. In fact, I'm vehemently against the idea of it in general. Are we going to start using Chromium with a list of patches to remove all the privacy violations? That's still giving up to the monoculture, though I suppose the privacy violations are assuaged. Why not just use Firefox? Open source? Please explain why it's better to use Vivaldi. I'm arguing against it, but Manjaro must justify why the FOSS spirit of Manjaro was broken, and what possible benefit (metaphorical, or $$$ literal) would be gained by switching to Vivaldi. >Gee, it really sounds like Google is in complete control of all other browsers that use Chromium right? In complete control of Chromium.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    > My point is that it should not be something that has to be removed. And it isn't a feature at all if you use any other Chromium based browser (not Chrome) like Brave, Edge or Vivaldi. > Please explain why it's better to use Vivaldi. I didn't say that you should use Vivaldi. Nope. I said that there are plenty of non-Chrome Chromium browsers to use in response to someone saying that there is a "one browser rules all" situation. There's not. There's not even a "one browser-engine to rule them all" situation given that Safari (WebKit) has a very sizable market share. > In complete control of Chromium. Yep and Linus Torvalds is in complete control of the Linux kernel, yet we have hundreds of distros that all do things differently. And it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Here's Microsoft discussing their decision to not fork Chromium, because they don't have to - "We have chosen not to fork since we don’t want to fragment the community, but our infrastructure does allow us to maintain patches for cases where we have a different point of view on individual changes (we talked about the webRequest/Manifest V3 changes in a couple other places. In general we plan to upstream our web platform improvements to the Chromium project. " [0] [0] https://windowsreport.com/chromiums-edge-fork/ https://windowsreport.com/chromiums-edge-fork/
    - sodality2 5y ago
      >And it isn't a feature at all if you use any other Chromium based browser (not Chrome) like Brave, Edge or Vivaldi. I am referring to the Chromium open source project. Not the derivatives. You can argue that everyone removes it, but that further shows how unwanted it is. >I said that there are plenty of non-Chrome Chromium browsers to use in response to someone saying that there is a "one browser rules all" situation I was actually referring to the engine, yeah. >There's not even a "one browser-engine to rule them all" situation given that Safari (WebKit) has a very sizable market share. Still very small. Less than 20%? Besides, a majority of that is iOS devices, where this engine is FORCED upon you... >Yep and Linus Torvalds is in complete control of the Linux kernel, yet we have hundreds of distros that all do things differently. The difference is the lack of corporate malice, which I classify FLoC under (which was added to Chromium, regardless of whether or not you say others have removed it). >And it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Here's Microsoft discussing their decision to not fork Chromium, because they don't have to - Not particularly sure what you mean here - this is just showing that edge is also contributing to the browser monoculture by still using Chromium and not even forking it. Though I suppose that's a little weak argument because patches are still applied.
sk2020 5y ago
Have you ever audited FF source? That’s a pretty big code base to exhaustively determine unwanted behavior does not exist.
- sodality2 5y ago
  Trust in the developers, because if there was ever an incentive to backdoor it, the source is publicly available. Also, I have skimmed it when I was bored. I think I got a few thousand lines of code in. But surely this means nothing because I didn't understand most of it- it just didn't "look" malicious. Still, I will always take FOSS and properly licensed over Vivaldi.