4 ms·

My sister is a nurse in a "red" state. During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity, she was PISSED because those floors could hav

My sister is a nurse in a "red" state. During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity, she was PISSED because those floors could have easily been used as overflow. And yes thay are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. >>"I almost wish that the anti-vaxxers would just stick to their science-rejecting principles and reject all health care, not just the vaccine. If they were to just die at home instead of clogging up the health care system unnecessarily, the vaccine would not be such a big deal." Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind.

pc86 5y ago
Wishing consistency in thought? Reread it. They're not wishing death on anyone. But the healthcare system is overloaded primarily due to people rejecting the vaccine that the healthcare system has been begging people to get for quite some time.
- moistrobot 5y ago
  that's what some people are saying yes. other possibly reasons include obesity, smoking habits, alcoholism, vaccine mandates on hospital staff, poor budgeting and planning by the hospital administrators on predicting ICU capacity. It's so easy to reduce this one variable thinking. But the oversimplification is what is dividing us
drewg123 5y ago
Ask people who have waited for health care, or had loved ones die due to delayed care. Hospitals were closed due to inactivity LAST YEAR, before vaccines, because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. I can assure you that the hospital I'm in has no closed floors.
- ecommerceguy 5y ago
  Those floors are still closed Drew, and my sister is still pissed off about it. You've been on all of the floors in that hospital? <- Notice Drew cannot say this for sure. >>because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. Wrong, one of the floors closed was the 7th floor where heart attack and stroke patients go. They closed due to lack of patients having heart attacks and strokes. These floors could be open right now and taking capacity from other full floors and hospitals. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20evidence%20suggesting%20a,during%20the%20COVID%2D19%20pandemic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:tex.... I'll add that they laid off a number of staff, many of which have not been added back on. In this hospital and many others, square footage is at a premium because operational capacity has been reduced.
  - belltaco 5y ago
    So hospitals should take financial losses(or get govt handouts to compensate) but people shouldn't need to get a jab in order not to end up in one?
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      Yeah, basically your freedom (to not get vaxxed) shouldn't overrule society's freedom as a whole to move on and get back to a decent semblance of what it was .
  - geofft 5y ago
    From the link you provide: > In the midst of a pandemic, the advice from medical professionals to “stay home, save lives” may be preventing patients from seeking medical care when symptoms of stroke arise due to fear of contracting COVID-19. Anecdotal reports across the United States are highlighting missed care during the current COVID-19 pandemic... i.e., yes, "people are afraid to get covid and expect to get it when going to a hospital" is an accurate description. The lack of patients having heart attacks and strokes is a lack of people willing to go to a hospital, not a lack of heart attacks and strokes.
HWR_14 5y ago
> During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity, she was PISSED because those floors could have easily been used as overflow. >yes thay are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. Well, most hospitals aren't limited by literal space. They are limited by personnel, or supplies, or even ICU capacity. Not square footage. > What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind. He's not wishing anything on them. People I know are being turned (well, advised) away from seeking medical care because the unvaccinated are dominating the hospitals. Is it really wrong to request that if they want to use our health care system they take basic care of themselves?
- hiram112 5y ago
  > Is it really wrong to request that if they want to use our health care system they take basic care of themselves? At least in the US, there is no "our" health care system. My employer and I pay about $500 / month in premiums for just me. My insurance company has made contractual agreements with the vast majority of health care providers (they've become more and more consolidated over the years) to provide service to their CUSTOMERS. On top of that, most Americans now have thousands of dollars in deductibles which are used to directly subsidize Obamacare recipients. But you're right, we should expect people to "take basic care of themselves" if they want to freeload on MY health care system. So along with those who are unvaccinated, let's toss out: * homosexual men. The rates of infectious diseases, including HIV which has a 100% fatality rate, are off the charts due to their very promiscuous lifestyles. Do you know the number of sexual partners an average gay man in the US has by middle age? It's shocking... * Young black men. Lifetime chances of using ER services due to violence are so high, it'd make sense just to deny them outright. * In fact, just deny all blacks in the US. After gay men, it turns out heterosexual black women are now the biggest carriers of HIV, and that is almost always caused by their choices (i.e. promiscuous lifestyles). On top of that, their obesity rates are so high that along with the fact they disproportionately freeload off the system (Medicaid, Obamacare subsidies, etc), our system would be improved drastically if we could cut that burden off. * Undocumented immigrants. They rarely pay into the system. They tend to not use preventative care due to lack of insurance, thus they disproportionately use ER services which is a disadvantage to those of us like me who pay for the system. I could go on, though I don't think you'd like who ends up being denied service because they "don't take basic care of themselves" and don't pay into the system.
w0m 5y ago
> And yes they are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. This is the kicker. It affects different areas disproportionately at different times; but on a response level we're pretending "my region!" is all areas in these discussions at all times. > Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind. I want to be clear - he prefaced it with a simple "I almost...", not a "I wish". It's simply a comment on how hard it is that anti-vaxxers are actively killing others currently with forced-ration care; and how frustrating the lack of individual responsibility is. Why should Alice die from (misc non-covid-related complication) because that care she needed went to John-from-accounting who was afraid of microchips in vaccines; but still went to that football game last week and can't breath now? That's not to say that's happening everywhere; but it's definitely happening.
belltaco 5y ago
>During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity Wasn't that because there weren't many cases due to people social distancing and opting out of elective surgeries and healthcare because of fear of infection? Hospitals are private institutions and will reduce staff. I think the proposed CARES act last had funding but wasn't passed during the then administration. >Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind Whatever happened to personal responsibility? People (ab)use freedom they don't want the consequences of doing so? They nod to all the politicians, talking heads, social media posts demonizing medical scientists, healthcare workers, doctors and then run to the hospital once sick? Don't you think there's a problem here with minimizing the dangers of covid and promoting unproven magic cures? Anyway I think unvaccinated people should be deprioritized if hospitals are full, unless they have a proven medical reason to not get vaccinated.
geofft 5y ago
There's no degeneracy here. It's a perfectly defensible line of moral reasoning. The constraint is, there simply is not enough capacity to treat everyone. If there was, there would be no problem. So should you prioritize care for people who are intentionally making themselves ill, or those who aren't? You have to choose one, after all. Are you advocating that people with illnesses other than covid should get delayed or denied care? Is that not just as degenerate? This is a well-explored situation in other cases of shortages. Suppose that there is a severe famine and the government imposes food rationing. The Smiths abide by the rations and eat small but barely sufficient meals for a month. The Joneses refuse (for whatever reason), buy lavish amounts of ingredients, and throw out leftovers. At the end of the month the Joneses have blown through their ration cards and say they will starve the next month unless the Smiths share some of their rations. The morally defensible answer is no, despite the danger that the Joneses may die, because if you say yes, now both the Joneses and the Smiths will be malnourished, this is an unacceptable harm to the Smiths, and being willing to answer yes will just encourage other people to act like the Joneses. It's a trolley problem. You always want to just stop the trolley of you can or get people off the tracks. But if you can't, you have to make a choice about who it hits. Being in the position of making that choice doesn't inherently make you a murderer.
- ecommerceguy 5y ago
  >>The constraint is, there simply is not enough capacity to treat everyone. If there was, there would be no problem. So should you prioritize care for people who are intentionally making themselves ill, or those who aren't? You're missing the point, floors closed create the deficit in operational capacity.
  - geofft 5y ago
    No, I addressed that. Ideally you stop the trolley or you untie people from the tracks. But if you can't, you have to choose where the trolley goes. Ideally we reopen the floors and have sufficient capacity to treat everyone. But if you can't do that, then you're making some judgment on who to treat.
dang 5y ago
Please don't respond to flamebait by taking the thread further into full-out flamewar. That's exactly what we don't want here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

pc86 5y ago

Wishing consistency in thought? Reread it. They're not wishing death on anyone. But the healthcare system is overloaded primarily due to people rejecting the vaccine that the healthcare system has been begging people to get for quite some time.

moistrobot 5y ago
that's what some people are saying yes. other possibly reasons include obesity, smoking habits, alcoholism, vaccine mandates on hospital staff, poor budgeting and planning by the hospital administrators on predicting ICU capacity. It's so easy to reduce this one variable thinking. But the oversimplification is what is dividing us

drewg123 5y ago

Ask people who have waited for health care, or had loved ones die due to delayed care. Hospitals were closed due to inactivity LAST YEAR, before vaccines, because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. I can assure you that the hospital I'm in has no closed floors.

ecommerceguy 5y ago
Those floors are still closed Drew, and my sister is still pissed off about it. You've been on all of the floors in that hospital? <- Notice Drew cannot say this for sure. >>because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. Wrong, one of the floors closed was the 7th floor where heart attack and stroke patients go. They closed due to lack of patients having heart attacks and strokes. These floors could be open right now and taking capacity from other full floors and hospitals. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20evidence%20suggesting%20a,during%20the%20COVID%2D19%20pandemic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:tex.... I'll add that they laid off a number of staff, many of which have not been added back on. In this hospital and many others, square footage is at a premium because operational capacity has been reduced.
- belltaco 5y ago
  So hospitals should take financial losses(or get govt handouts to compensate) but people shouldn't need to get a jab in order not to end up in one?
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Yeah, basically your freedom (to not get vaxxed) shouldn't overrule society's freedom as a whole to move on and get back to a decent semblance of what it was .
- geofft 5y ago
  From the link you provide: > In the midst of a pandemic, the advice from medical professionals to “stay home, save lives” may be preventing patients from seeking medical care when symptoms of stroke arise due to fear of contracting COVID-19. Anecdotal reports across the United States are highlighting missed care during the current COVID-19 pandemic... i.e., yes, "people are afraid to get covid and expect to get it when going to a hospital" is an accurate description. The lack of patients having heart attacks and strokes is a lack of people willing to go to a hospital, not a lack of heart attacks and strokes.

HWR_14 5y ago

> During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity, she was PISSED because those floors could have easily been used as overflow. >yes thay are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. Well, most hospitals aren't limited by literal space. They are limited by personnel, or supplies, or even ICU capacity. Not square footage. > What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind. He's not wishing anything on them. People I know are being turned (well, advised) away from seeking medical care because the unvaccinated are dominating the hospitals. Is it really wrong to request that if they want to use our health care system they take basic care of themselves?

hiram112 5y ago
> Is it really wrong to request that if they want to use our health care system they take basic care of themselves? At least in the US, there is no "our" health care system. My employer and I pay about $500 / month in premiums for just me. My insurance company has made contractual agreements with the vast majority of health care providers (they've become more and more consolidated over the years) to provide service to their CUSTOMERS. On top of that, most Americans now have thousands of dollars in deductibles which are used to directly subsidize Obamacare recipients. But you're right, we should expect people to "take basic care of themselves" if they want to freeload on MY health care system. So along with those who are unvaccinated, let's toss out: * homosexual men. The rates of infectious diseases, including HIV which has a 100% fatality rate, are off the charts due to their very promiscuous lifestyles. Do you know the number of sexual partners an average gay man in the US has by middle age? It's shocking... * Young black men. Lifetime chances of using ER services due to violence are so high, it'd make sense just to deny them outright. * In fact, just deny all blacks in the US. After gay men, it turns out heterosexual black women are now the biggest carriers of HIV, and that is almost always caused by their choices (i.e. promiscuous lifestyles). On top of that, their obesity rates are so high that along with the fact they disproportionately freeload off the system (Medicaid, Obamacare subsidies, etc), our system would be improved drastically if we could cut that burden off. * Undocumented immigrants. They rarely pay into the system. They tend to not use preventative care due to lack of insurance, thus they disproportionately use ER services which is a disadvantage to those of us like me who pay for the system. I could go on, though I don't think you'd like who ends up being denied service because they "don't take basic care of themselves" and don't pay into the system.

w0m 5y ago

> And yes they are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. This is the kicker. It affects different areas disproportionately at different times; but on a response level we're pretending "my region!" is all areas in these discussions at all times. > Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind. I want to be clear - he prefaced it with a simple "I almost...", not a "I wish". It's simply a comment on how hard it is that anti-vaxxers are actively killing others currently with forced-ration care; and how frustrating the lack of individual responsibility is. Why should Alice die from (misc non-covid-related complication) because that care she needed went to John-from-accounting who was afraid of microchips in vaccines; but still went to that football game last week and can't breath now? That's not to say that's happening everywhere; but it's definitely happening.

belltaco 5y ago

>During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity Wasn't that because there weren't many cases due to people social distancing and opting out of elective surgeries and healthcare because of fear of infection? Hospitals are private institutions and will reduce staff. I think the proposed CARES act last had funding but wasn't passed during the then administration. >Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind Whatever happened to personal responsibility? People (ab)use freedom they don't want the consequences of doing so? They nod to all the politicians, talking heads, social media posts demonizing medical scientists, healthcare workers, doctors and then run to the hospital once sick? Don't you think there's a problem here with minimizing the dangers of covid and promoting unproven magic cures? Anyway I think unvaccinated people should be deprioritized if hospitals are full, unless they have a proven medical reason to not get vaccinated.

geofft 5y ago

There's no degeneracy here. It's a perfectly defensible line of moral reasoning. The constraint is, there simply is not enough capacity to treat everyone. If there was, there would be no problem. So should you prioritize care for people who are intentionally making themselves ill, or those who aren't? You have to choose one, after all. Are you advocating that people with illnesses other than covid should get delayed or denied care? Is that not just as degenerate? This is a well-explored situation in other cases of shortages. Suppose that there is a severe famine and the government imposes food rationing. The Smiths abide by the rations and eat small but barely sufficient meals for a month. The Joneses refuse (for whatever reason), buy lavish amounts of ingredients, and throw out leftovers. At the end of the month the Joneses have blown through their ration cards and say they will starve the next month unless the Smiths share some of their rations. The morally defensible answer is no, despite the danger that the Joneses may die, because if you say yes, now both the Joneses and the Smiths will be malnourished, this is an unacceptable harm to the Smiths, and being willing to answer yes will just encourage other people to act like the Joneses. It's a trolley problem. You always want to just stop the trolley of you can or get people off the tracks. But if you can't, you have to make a choice about who it hits. Being in the position of making that choice doesn't inherently make you a murderer.

ecommerceguy 5y ago
>>The constraint is, there simply is not enough capacity to treat everyone. If there was, there would be no problem. So should you prioritize care for people who are intentionally making themselves ill, or those who aren't? You're missing the point, floors closed create the deficit in operational capacity.
- geofft 5y ago
  No, I addressed that. Ideally you stop the trolley or you untie people from the tracks. But if you can't, you have to choose where the trolley goes. Ideally we reopen the floors and have sufficient capacity to treat everyone. But if you can't do that, then you're making some judgment on who to treat.

dang 5y ago

Please don't respond to flamebait by taking the thread further into full-out flamewar. That's exactly what we don't want here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html