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For those of you arguing against getting vaccinated, please go volunteer at a local hospital. I'm currently in the hospital in the "red" part of my purple stat

For those of you arguing against getting vaccinated, please go volunteer at a local hospital. I'm currently in the hospital in the "red" part of my purple state. I had an acute appendicitis, and had to wait in a temporary, crowded, understaffed holding area in the ER for over 18 hours before getting admitted for treatment. My roommate in the hospital has an infected foot, and waited over 24 hours to be admitted. He may now loose his foot. The nurses on this non-COVID floor are on a skeleton staff to shift resources to care for COVID patients, the majority of which are unvaccinated. Around the country, some hospitals are pausing "elective" treatments, like cancer surgeries due to the flood of unvaccinated critically ill COVID patients. I almost wish that the anti-vaxxers would just stick to their science-rejecting principles and reject all health care, not just the vaccine. If they were to just die at home instead of clogging up the health care system unnecessarily, the vaccine would not be such a big deal.

SergeAx 5y ago
But working in a hospital requires vaccination now, isn't it? Or even was required by many medical facilities before current events?
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  There are a surprising number of nurses that are unvaccinated (much more than Doctors, of which very few are unvaccinated).
  - ecommerceguy 5y ago
    Do you have a source for this?
    - pc86 5y ago
      Not the GP but for which claim? Anecdotally I don't know of any physician I've met in person (my SO and most of her family are all physicians) who isn't vaccinated. I've heard of a couple through stories so it might be 1-2% in my 1st and 2nd level of connections? Meanwhile every single physician I've spoken to about it knows at least a handful of nurses who aren't vaccinated and cite pseudoscientific nonsense as the justification. Nurses are great but the difference in bar to entry and education between a physician and a nurse is staggering. Edit: Here is a source from a couple months ago citing 96% physician vaccination rate and <50% nurse vaccination rate: https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2021/06/28/covid19-vaccination-rates-are-poor-among-healthcare-workershow-can-we-do-better/?sh=20c906b2589e https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2021/06/28/covid19-va...
    - frumper 5y ago
      https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vacc... 96% for doctors
- drewg123 5y ago
  I didn't realize that, but you're probably right. The point I was trying to make is that neither I, nor my roommate (the only other patient I've had a conversation with) realized exactly how bad of shape the hospitals were in until we showed up at the ER and experienced it in person. The relentless media coverage is easy to tune out after a while, but actually experiencing the effects of a COVID surge personally brings it home. I'm not sure how else to suggest someone experience a hospital as a non-patient..
  - leesalminen 5y ago
    Did you go to an emergency room in 2019, by chance? Waiting many hours to be admitted has been the norm in American healthcare for a very long time.
    - drewg123 5y ago
      According to the staff, the temporary holding area I was in (an office cube farm converted to holding patients in recliners) was new, as was the practice of lining every available hallway with people in beds. I went to this hospital specifically because it was close to home (riding in a car with an appendicitis is agony), and because it advertised low wait times. It turns out the low wait time was to be triaged, not to be treated.
      - stjohnswarts 5y ago
        Sure but now the times are astronomical and they may take one look at you and say you're too far gone and let you die because ICU simply doesn't have any beds. So some dummy who wouldn't get the vaccine just killed (by proxy) your relative most likely.
    - slenk 5y ago
      People lining the hallways waiting is not the norm in American healthcare
      - a_conservative 5y ago
- grupthink 5y ago
  No, my sister is an RN at a hospital in Los Angeles and vaccinations are optional for her. She is vaccinated, but if she wasn't, she would have to get a covid test twice a week. A few of her co-workers complained to administration that they don't want to be vaccinated, but now also complain that they now must be poked in the nose semi-weekly.
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
People are dying from simple stuff while waiting for ICU beds, but the anti-vaxx crowd doesn't really care. https://people.com/health/u-s-army-veteran-dies-of-treatable-illness-fter-being-unable-to-get-a-hospital-bed-in-time-due-to-pandemic-shortages/ https://people.com/health/u-s-army-veteran-dies-of-treatable... https://www.ky3.com/2021/08/27/man-dies-waiting-icu-bed-family-says/ https://www.ky3.com/2021/08/27/man-dies-waiting-icu-bed-fami...
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > waiting for ICU beds Not saying this isn't happening, but the phrasing here is a little disingenuous - there are plenty of beds, just not enough doctors and nurses to staff them. And why is that? In many cases, it's because the doctors and nurses themselves refuse to take an experimental vaccine and are being furloughed or terminated.
  - pc86 5y ago
    Stop saying "experimental vaccine" because that's entirely untrue. It might have been true for barely reasonable interpretations of the term months ago, but it's certainly untrue now.
    - whymauri 5y ago
      It's literally FDA approved at this point. My brain melts every time I read a COVID discussion on HN -- it's actually worst than Reddit at this point because people here believe they're _just so much smarter than everyone else_. Even more so than Reddit, which I previously believed was impossible.
  - drewg123 5y ago
    You're the one being disingenuous. The vaccine is not experimental. Its FDA approved.
    - wikidani 5y ago
      There are some serious issues with FDA approval,for example the potential conflict of interest with pharmaceutical companies providing funding to the same entity approving their drugs
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ds206 5y ago
Yeah, definitely blame unvaccinated people instead of our broken healthcare system. That makes 100% sense /s
- 0xTJ 5y ago
  Two things can be broken. But people who choose to be unvaccinated are imposing themselves as an added burden on society, and are acting selfish, though they're not even doing that because they're failing to protect themselves too.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > blame unvaccinated people instead of our broken healthcare system. That makes 100% sense There hasn't been a healthcare system that didn't break in the past year (well, assuming a functional one to start with.) Whereas, there have been groups of people who broke the system (the unvaccinated, including groups pre-vaccine) and those who didn't (the vaccinated)
ecommerceguy 5y ago
My sister is a nurse in a "red" state. During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity, she was PISSED because those floors could have easily been used as overflow. And yes thay are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. >>"I almost wish that the anti-vaxxers would just stick to their science-rejecting principles and reject all health care, not just the vaccine. If they were to just die at home instead of clogging up the health care system unnecessarily, the vaccine would not be such a big deal." Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind.
- pc86 5y ago
  Wishing consistency in thought? Reread it. They're not wishing death on anyone. But the healthcare system is overloaded primarily due to people rejecting the vaccine that the healthcare system has been begging people to get for quite some time.
  - moistrobot 5y ago
    that's what some people are saying yes. other possibly reasons include obesity, smoking habits, alcoholism, vaccine mandates on hospital staff, poor budgeting and planning by the hospital administrators on predicting ICU capacity. It's so easy to reduce this one variable thinking. But the oversimplification is what is dividing us
- drewg123 5y ago
  Ask people who have waited for health care, or had loved ones die due to delayed care. Hospitals were closed due to inactivity LAST YEAR, before vaccines, because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. I can assure you that the hospital I'm in has no closed floors.
  - ecommerceguy 5y ago
    Those floors are still closed Drew, and my sister is still pissed off about it. You've been on all of the floors in that hospital? <- Notice Drew cannot say this for sure. >>because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. Wrong, one of the floors closed was the 7th floor where heart attack and stroke patients go. They closed due to lack of patients having heart attacks and strokes. These floors could be open right now and taking capacity from other full floors and hospitals. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20evidence%20suggesting%20a,during%20the%20COVID%2D19%20pandemic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:tex.... I'll add that they laid off a number of staff, many of which have not been added back on. In this hospital and many others, square footage is at a premium because operational capacity has been reduced.
exabrial 5y ago
> "Arguing against vaccination" Stop. You're intentionally skewing what's being said and making the problem worse. People are against _forced_ medical procedures by a government. A small minority is anti-science, but you give them a voice every time YOU do what you just did.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > People are against _forced_ medical procedures by a government. No, they really aren't. No one is against eye tests as part of driving. No one is against a hospital saving an unconscious person's life without prior consent. No one was even against vaccinations to go to school. And this isn't even a "forced medical procedure". It's a requirement for large corporations, not people.
- sanp 5y ago
  All 50 states require children to be vaccinated for a range of other diseases. So, we already do that in the interest of public safety. What's different here? What is the absolute freedom that is applicable here that is not applicable for other vaccination requirements? This crowd of anti-vaxxers skews heavily to one political orientation. I am not sure they are genuinely against forced government anything (the same crowd will vote for anti-abortion laws, heavy police powers and so on)
- ImPostingOnHN 5y ago
  extremely important to clarify that only a small minority of "people" are against vaccine mandates, whereas the majority of people are not against vaccine mandates https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-mandate-work-poll-americans-favor/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-mandate-work-poll...
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Yeah most of the people refusing vaccines are conspiracy nuts and afraid of it because they've heard a talking head (that for whatever they trust) tell them not to take it.
dang 5y ago
> If they were to just die at home instead of Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. Arguing that the other side should die is beyond the pale—I realize people on the internet are going there with alacrity, but it's exactly the kind of thing we don't want here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. Please don't post like this to HN. I can certainly understand why you feel strongly under the circumstances and hope you get excellent care and get well soon. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- drewg123 5y ago
  Thanks, sorry. I was on the fence about saying that, and I realize I should not have. It seems its too late to edit or delete the comment though.
maceurt 5y ago
The reason I am annoyed about a vaccine mandate is that I take care of my health. I eat healthy, exercise regularly, don't do drink or take any illegal drugs, and have been consistently taking vitamin D everyday for the last 3+ years. These are all things that everybody should be encouraged to do, but the government has not been putting in almost any concentrated effort to encourage people to do these things at all. Then when Covid starts spreading and mostly killing unhealthy people I should be the one risking my health, taking a vaccine that is way less tested than any other FDA approved vaccine, to help the people who practice unhealthy lives and are the ones most at risk of dying from Covid? I am 19 years old and had to stay inside for the last 1.5 years for a virus that I am not afraid of and almost certainly would not kill me if I were to contract it. My mental health has been deteriorating for the whole quarantine, years of my youth are being taken away because of something that simply doesn't affect me. Unhealthy old people have screwed my life up and taken years away from me so if they expect me to take a knee to help them then they can go to hell. You lock people in doors for years of their life make them wear masks everywhere in public and now are gonna make me stick a needle up my arm so I can keep my job? Go to hell, I rather die than be yanked around like this to appease people who don't care about me and a government who treats me like shit and insults me. And their is still no timeframe for when this bullshit will be over.

SergeAx 5y ago

But working in a hospital requires vaccination now, isn't it? Or even was required by many medical facilities before current events?

rejectedandsad 5y ago
There are a surprising number of nurses that are unvaccinated (much more than Doctors, of which very few are unvaccinated).
- ecommerceguy 5y ago
  Do you have a source for this?
  - pc86 5y ago
    Not the GP but for which claim? Anecdotally I don't know of any physician I've met in person (my SO and most of her family are all physicians) who isn't vaccinated. I've heard of a couple through stories so it might be 1-2% in my 1st and 2nd level of connections? Meanwhile every single physician I've spoken to about it knows at least a handful of nurses who aren't vaccinated and cite pseudoscientific nonsense as the justification. Nurses are great but the difference in bar to entry and education between a physician and a nurse is staggering. Edit: Here is a source from a couple months ago citing 96% physician vaccination rate and <50% nurse vaccination rate: https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2021/06/28/covid19-vaccination-rates-are-poor-among-healthcare-workershow-can-we-do-better/?sh=20c906b2589e https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2021/06/28/covid19-va...
  - frumper 5y ago
    https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vacc... 96% for doctors
drewg123 5y ago
I didn't realize that, but you're probably right. The point I was trying to make is that neither I, nor my roommate (the only other patient I've had a conversation with) realized exactly how bad of shape the hospitals were in until we showed up at the ER and experienced it in person. The relentless media coverage is easy to tune out after a while, but actually experiencing the effects of a COVID surge personally brings it home. I'm not sure how else to suggest someone experience a hospital as a non-patient..
- leesalminen 5y ago
  Did you go to an emergency room in 2019, by chance? Waiting many hours to be admitted has been the norm in American healthcare for a very long time.
  - drewg123 5y ago
    According to the staff, the temporary holding area I was in (an office cube farm converted to holding patients in recliners) was new, as was the practice of lining every available hallway with people in beds. I went to this hospital specifically because it was close to home (riding in a car with an appendicitis is agony), and because it advertised low wait times. It turns out the low wait time was to be triaged, not to be treated.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      Sure but now the times are astronomical and they may take one look at you and say you're too far gone and let you die because ICU simply doesn't have any beds. So some dummy who wouldn't get the vaccine just killed (by proxy) your relative most likely.
  - slenk 5y ago
    People lining the hallways waiting is not the norm in American healthcare
    - a_conservative 5y ago
grupthink 5y ago
No, my sister is an RN at a hospital in Los Angeles and vaccinations are optional for her. She is vaccinated, but if she wasn't, she would have to get a covid test twice a week. A few of her co-workers complained to administration that they don't want to be vaccinated, but now also complain that they now must be poked in the nose semi-weekly.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago

People are dying from simple stuff while waiting for ICU beds, but the anti-vaxx crowd doesn't really care. https://people.com/health/u-s-army-veteran-dies-of-treatable-illness-fter-being-unable-to-get-a-hospital-bed-in-time-due-to-pandemic-shortages/ https://people.com/health/u-s-army-veteran-dies-of-treatable... https://www.ky3.com/2021/08/27/man-dies-waiting-icu-bed-family-says/ https://www.ky3.com/2021/08/27/man-dies-waiting-icu-bed-fami...

commandlinefan 5y ago
> waiting for ICU beds Not saying this isn't happening, but the phrasing here is a little disingenuous - there are plenty of beds, just not enough doctors and nurses to staff them. And why is that? In many cases, it's because the doctors and nurses themselves refuse to take an experimental vaccine and are being furloughed or terminated.
- pc86 5y ago
  Stop saying "experimental vaccine" because that's entirely untrue. It might have been true for barely reasonable interpretations of the term months ago, but it's certainly untrue now.
  - whymauri 5y ago
    It's literally FDA approved at this point. My brain melts every time I read a COVID discussion on HN -- it's actually worst than Reddit at this point because people here believe they're _just so much smarter than everyone else_. Even more so than Reddit, which I previously believed was impossible.
- drewg123 5y ago
  You're the one being disingenuous. The vaccine is not experimental. Its FDA approved.
  - wikidani 5y ago
    There are some serious issues with FDA approval,for example the potential conflict of interest with pharmaceutical companies providing funding to the same entity approving their drugs

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ds206 5y ago

Yeah, definitely blame unvaccinated people instead of our broken healthcare system. That makes 100% sense /s

0xTJ 5y ago
Two things can be broken. But people who choose to be unvaccinated are imposing themselves as an added burden on society, and are acting selfish, though they're not even doing that because they're failing to protect themselves too.
HWR_14 5y ago
> blame unvaccinated people instead of our broken healthcare system. That makes 100% sense There hasn't been a healthcare system that didn't break in the past year (well, assuming a functional one to start with.) Whereas, there have been groups of people who broke the system (the unvaccinated, including groups pre-vaccine) and those who didn't (the vaccinated)

ecommerceguy 5y ago

My sister is a nurse in a "red" state. During Covid they CLOSED 3 entire floors of the Hospital due to inactivity, she was PISSED because those floors could have easily been used as overflow. And yes thay are "full" now because operational capacity has been significantly reduced. >>"I almost wish that the anti-vaxxers would just stick to their science-rejecting principles and reject all health care, not just the vaccine. If they were to just die at home instead of clogging up the health care system unnecessarily, the vaccine would not be such a big deal." Comments like this are just pure disgraceful and disgusting. What sort of degenerate would wish this upon others blows my mind.

pc86 5y ago
Wishing consistency in thought? Reread it. They're not wishing death on anyone. But the healthcare system is overloaded primarily due to people rejecting the vaccine that the healthcare system has been begging people to get for quite some time.
- moistrobot 5y ago
  that's what some people are saying yes. other possibly reasons include obesity, smoking habits, alcoholism, vaccine mandates on hospital staff, poor budgeting and planning by the hospital administrators on predicting ICU capacity. It's so easy to reduce this one variable thinking. But the oversimplification is what is dividing us
drewg123 5y ago
Ask people who have waited for health care, or had loved ones die due to delayed care. Hospitals were closed due to inactivity LAST YEAR, before vaccines, because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. I can assure you that the hospital I'm in has no closed floors.
- ecommerceguy 5y ago
  Those floors are still closed Drew, and my sister is still pissed off about it. You've been on all of the floors in that hospital? <- Notice Drew cannot say this for sure. >>because people were AFRAID TO GET COVID and expected to get it when going to a hospital. Wrong, one of the floors closed was the 7th floor where heart attack and stroke patients go. They closed due to lack of patients having heart attacks and strokes. These floors could be open right now and taking capacity from other full floors and hospitals. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20evidence%20suggesting%20a,during%20the%20COVID%2D19%20pandemic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7581311/#:~:tex.... I'll add that they laid off a number of staff, many of which have not been added back on. In this hospital and many others, square footage is at a premium because operational capacity has been reduced.

exabrial 5y ago

> "Arguing against vaccination" Stop. You're intentionally skewing what's being said and making the problem worse. People are against _forced_ medical procedures by a government. A small minority is anti-science, but you give them a voice every time YOU do what you just did.

HWR_14 5y ago
> People are against _forced_ medical procedures by a government. No, they really aren't. No one is against eye tests as part of driving. No one is against a hospital saving an unconscious person's life without prior consent. No one was even against vaccinations to go to school. And this isn't even a "forced medical procedure". It's a requirement for large corporations, not people.
sanp 5y ago
All 50 states require children to be vaccinated for a range of other diseases. So, we already do that in the interest of public safety. What's different here? What is the absolute freedom that is applicable here that is not applicable for other vaccination requirements? This crowd of anti-vaxxers skews heavily to one political orientation. I am not sure they are genuinely against forced government anything (the same crowd will vote for anti-abortion laws, heavy police powers and so on)
ImPostingOnHN 5y ago
extremely important to clarify that only a small minority of "people" are against vaccine mandates, whereas the majority of people are not against vaccine mandates https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-mandate-work-poll-americans-favor/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-mandate-work-poll...
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Yeah most of the people refusing vaccines are conspiracy nuts and afraid of it because they've heard a talking head (that for whatever they trust) tell them not to take it.

dang 5y ago

> If they were to just die at home instead of Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. Arguing that the other side should die is beyond the pale—I realize people on the internet are going there with alacrity, but it's exactly the kind of thing we don't want here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. Please don't post like this to HN. I can certainly understand why you feel strongly under the circumstances and hope you get excellent care and get well soon. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

drewg123 5y ago
Thanks, sorry. I was on the fence about saying that, and I realize I should not have. It seems its too late to edit or delete the comment though.

maceurt 5y ago

The reason I am annoyed about a vaccine mandate is that I take care of my health. I eat healthy, exercise regularly, don't do drink or take any illegal drugs, and have been consistently taking vitamin D everyday for the last 3+ years. These are all things that everybody should be encouraged to do, but the government has not been putting in almost any concentrated effort to encourage people to do these things at all. Then when Covid starts spreading and mostly killing unhealthy people I should be the one risking my health, taking a vaccine that is way less tested than any other FDA approved vaccine, to help the people who practice unhealthy lives and are the ones most at risk of dying from Covid? I am 19 years old and had to stay inside for the last 1.5 years for a virus that I am not afraid of and almost certainly would not kill me if I were to contract it. My mental health has been deteriorating for the whole quarantine, years of my youth are being taken away because of something that simply doesn't affect me. Unhealthy old people have screwed my life up and taken years away from me so if they expect me to take a knee to help them then they can go to hell. You lock people in doors for years of their life make them wear masks everywhere in public and now are gonna make me stick a needle up my arm so I can keep my job? Go to hell, I rather die than be yanked around like this to appease people who don't care about me and a government who treats me like shit and insults me. And their is still no timeframe for when this bullshit will be over.