3 ms·

Arguments for thinking of the burnt-out healthcare professionals are tired and miss the forest for the trees. There are many reasons for healthcare professional

by ctrlp 5y ago

Arguments for thinking of the burnt-out healthcare professionals are tired and miss the forest for the trees. There are many reasons for healthcare professionals feeling burnt-out that pre-date Covid and were exacerbated by it. Where were your tears for them then? You clearly don't value your liberty. (Maybe you don't even understand what it means, given your mockery.) Liberty refers to your right to govern yourself. If you would rather be governed by unelected administrative agencies, you'll be just fine in the new normal.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
The liberty you think ever existed never did, look around. All the "freedom" advocates against the vax just pick and choose how they define freedom. There's no place in the world you can live as a sovereign citizen, so I'd suggest you get on board or buy a boat and live out on open water because that's the only place you'll be "free".
- ctrlp 5y ago
  IMO, this type of political nihilism is the natural result of a dispirited populace grown used to delegating its own government to unaccountable managers. I'm not arguing for sovereign citizenship, just regular citizenship. There is a long tradition of political thought regarding liberty and freedom, your cynicism notwithstanding. If you ever find yourself using terms like 'rights', 'free', or 'justice' without quotations then I hope you can resolve your internal contractions.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Citizenship comes with strings attached and I'm under no illusion or delusion that I am "free" in the objective sense. I'm also completely ok with that because society has afforded me great freedom(s) that I could not have elsewhere. I _have_ to work a job, I _have_ to pay taxes, I _have_ to enlist if called upon in the draft, I _have_ to be vaccinated to go to school. The inconvenient truth may be that as society becomes more interconnected, the less objective freedoms we have because we're trying to scale humanity and reap the collective benefits. Again, I'm completely ok with that because even in software, we have standards that software must abide by in order to interoperate efficiently. You can't just say "I don't want to conform the society's standards" yet reap the benefits the collective has provided. I'm content with my world view, maybe it's you that needs to look outside of yourself and see what everyone is actually trying to do here (outside of this immediate situation, I mean the species as a whole).
    - ctrlp 5y ago
      You previously used "freedoms" in mocking quotes. Which freedoms are you referring to now and why do you think they don't deserve the same mockery? You also confidently throw around terms like 'benefits' and 'collective' as if those terms have objective meanings we can all agree on. What you're describing sounds like the happy path to techno-totalitarianism. You're only saying what you said before, that you'll be fine ("completely ok") with that outcome. Will you be content when you have to present digitally signed 'papers' to participate in what today we would consider normal functions of life? It sounds like the answer is 'yes', because you see it as the cost of 'scaling humanity', whatever that means.
      - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
        I'm mocking the way people who believe and use the word "freedom" to assert some innate sovereignty over how they are allowed to act in society and faux rights which they don't actually have. People who use phrases such as "wearing a mask tramples on my freedom". These "freedoms" aren't actually freedoms. They're made up to mean "things I don't like" and in no codified law both common or contemporary. I'm not describing anything other than the complete lack of perspective and, frankly, will for these people to operate in a society which needs their cooperation in order to function efficiently. These people are more like a virus than anything. I already have to show physical "papers": passport, license, social security card, birth certificate, etc. Why should I be worried about "digital" papers? Again, completely delusional conspiracy that has no basis in reality.
        ctrlp 5y ago
        You've already decided to dehumanize the people who don't agree to take a mandated health intervention. You may feel comfortable comparing people to viruses but I don't. The 20th century has a nasty history of that sort of thing. As far as delusional conspiracy theories, what's your opinion on social credit systems, central bank digital currencies, and intra-national passports? Last I checked those are on the menu in China and coming to a democracy near you.
- guscost 5y ago
  Nah, I think I’ll just live in a society that has the same values as me. It might have to be a new one.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Would be interesting to see if/when you do find this new society, whether the grass was really greener or not.
steverb 5y ago
To trot out an old saw: "Your rights end and the tip of my nose." You do not have a Deity-given right to infect other people with disease.
- cheeseomlit 5y ago
  By that same logic, shouldn't your rights end at the epidermis on my arm? Don't I have a right to be secure in my person, as that phrase implies? That interpretation makes more sense to me than asserting the right to be exempt from natural biological functions like disease.
  - steverb 5y ago
    I would be totally okay with treating it like a driving accident. You're free not to get the shot, but in the case that you contract Covid you then open yourself up to civil liability to everyone you came in contact with.
    - ctrlp 5y ago
      Should that be the precedent for all communicable disease going forward? What about the common cold your child gave me that caused me to miss work? Will you be liable for that?
      - steverb 5y ago
        If my kids walk around knowingly infecting people with a deadly communicable disease for which there is a free and safe vaccine for... then yes.
        ctrlp 5y ago
        Many people's kids are, in fact, sent to school with communicable diseases that are deadly for some, just as Covid is deadly for some. But why stop at death? If your child's cold costs me a day of work, then by your logic, I should sue you for lost wages.
kbos87 5y ago
I value liberty, but I also recognize that there are situations where action (and when needed, mandates) for the good of the collective outweigh individual liberties. Unless you choose to live in the woods disconnected from everything and everyone, you are directly benefitting from the modern and civilized society we live in. If you want to continue participating in and benefitting from it, you'll need to cooperate from time to time. The government is giving you an easy out here - don't want the vaccine? Don't participate in a specific portion of societal life (working at a company with 100+ employees.) It's pretty simple. Any argument that getting a free vaccine is even a sacrifice is a slap in the face of anyone who has died of a communicable disease or can't access a vaccine today. I also can't help but recognize that the people who are always railing about any perceived loss of liberty do so very selectively. What have you done, and where have you spoken out about abortion rights being trampled on in Texas? Not saying that you can't choose your issues like everyone else does, but don't pretend that you are defending "liberty".
- ctrlp 5y ago
  The trampling of liberty I'm concerned about has to do with the Federal (central) government abrogating constitutionally mandated restraints on the Federal government and taking over powers that by law belong to the States. The 'right' to abortion is far downstream from the Constitution, whether you agree with it or not.
- iammisc 5y ago
  If you consider abortion to be direct murder, there is no right to abortion. Refusing a covid vaccine is at best making a decision that may kill someone else. We allow these sorts of decisions all the time whether it be not limiting the amount of alcohol an adult can legally serve, smoking, etc. While the arguments against covid vaccine mandates are similar to pro abortion arguments, the similarities are only superficial. The arguments are slightly different because the circumstances are and this is where the comparison breaks down.

by ctrlp 5y ago

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

The liberty you think ever existed never did, look around. All the "freedom" advocates against the vax just pick and choose how they define freedom. There's no place in the world you can live as a sovereign citizen, so I'd suggest you get on board or buy a boat and live out on open water because that's the only place you'll be "free".

ctrlp 5y ago
IMO, this type of political nihilism is the natural result of a dispirited populace grown used to delegating its own government to unaccountable managers. I'm not arguing for sovereign citizenship, just regular citizenship. There is a long tradition of political thought regarding liberty and freedom, your cynicism notwithstanding. If you ever find yourself using terms like 'rights', 'free', or 'justice' without quotations then I hope you can resolve your internal contractions.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Citizenship comes with strings attached and I'm under no illusion or delusion that I am "free" in the objective sense. I'm also completely ok with that because society has afforded me great freedom(s) that I could not have elsewhere. I _have_ to work a job, I _have_ to pay taxes, I _have_ to enlist if called upon in the draft, I _have_ to be vaccinated to go to school. The inconvenient truth may be that as society becomes more interconnected, the less objective freedoms we have because we're trying to scale humanity and reap the collective benefits. Again, I'm completely ok with that because even in software, we have standards that software must abide by in order to interoperate efficiently. You can't just say "I don't want to conform the society's standards" yet reap the benefits the collective has provided. I'm content with my world view, maybe it's you that needs to look outside of yourself and see what everyone is actually trying to do here (outside of this immediate situation, I mean the species as a whole).
  - ctrlp 5y ago
    You previously used "freedoms" in mocking quotes. Which freedoms are you referring to now and why do you think they don't deserve the same mockery? You also confidently throw around terms like 'benefits' and 'collective' as if those terms have objective meanings we can all agree on. What you're describing sounds like the happy path to techno-totalitarianism. You're only saying what you said before, that you'll be fine ("completely ok") with that outcome. Will you be content when you have to present digitally signed 'papers' to participate in what today we would consider normal functions of life? It sounds like the answer is 'yes', because you see it as the cost of 'scaling humanity', whatever that means.
    - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
      I'm mocking the way people who believe and use the word "freedom" to assert some innate sovereignty over how they are allowed to act in society and faux rights which they don't actually have. People who use phrases such as "wearing a mask tramples on my freedom". These "freedoms" aren't actually freedoms. They're made up to mean "things I don't like" and in no codified law both common or contemporary. I'm not describing anything other than the complete lack of perspective and, frankly, will for these people to operate in a society which needs their cooperation in order to function efficiently. These people are more like a virus than anything. I already have to show physical "papers": passport, license, social security card, birth certificate, etc. Why should I be worried about "digital" papers? Again, completely delusional conspiracy that has no basis in reality.
      - ctrlp 5y ago
        You've already decided to dehumanize the people who don't agree to take a mandated health intervention. You may feel comfortable comparing people to viruses but I don't. The 20th century has a nasty history of that sort of thing. As far as delusional conspiracy theories, what's your opinion on social credit systems, central bank digital currencies, and intra-national passports? Last I checked those are on the menu in China and coming to a democracy near you.
guscost 5y ago
Nah, I think I’ll just live in a society that has the same values as me. It might have to be a new one.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Would be interesting to see if/when you do find this new society, whether the grass was really greener or not.

steverb 5y ago

To trot out an old saw: "Your rights end and the tip of my nose." You do not have a Deity-given right to infect other people with disease.

cheeseomlit 5y ago
By that same logic, shouldn't your rights end at the epidermis on my arm? Don't I have a right to be secure in my person, as that phrase implies? That interpretation makes more sense to me than asserting the right to be exempt from natural biological functions like disease.
- steverb 5y ago
  I would be totally okay with treating it like a driving accident. You're free not to get the shot, but in the case that you contract Covid you then open yourself up to civil liability to everyone you came in contact with.
  - ctrlp 5y ago
    Should that be the precedent for all communicable disease going forward? What about the common cold your child gave me that caused me to miss work? Will you be liable for that?
    - steverb 5y ago
      If my kids walk around knowingly infecting people with a deadly communicable disease for which there is a free and safe vaccine for... then yes.
      - ctrlp 5y ago
        Many people's kids are, in fact, sent to school with communicable diseases that are deadly for some, just as Covid is deadly for some. But why stop at death? If your child's cold costs me a day of work, then by your logic, I should sue you for lost wages.

kbos87 5y ago

I value liberty, but I also recognize that there are situations where action (and when needed, mandates) for the good of the collective outweigh individual liberties. Unless you choose to live in the woods disconnected from everything and everyone, you are directly benefitting from the modern and civilized society we live in. If you want to continue participating in and benefitting from it, you'll need to cooperate from time to time. The government is giving you an easy out here - don't want the vaccine? Don't participate in a specific portion of societal life (working at a company with 100+ employees.) It's pretty simple. Any argument that getting a free vaccine is even a sacrifice is a slap in the face of anyone who has died of a communicable disease or can't access a vaccine today. I also can't help but recognize that the people who are always railing about any perceived loss of liberty do so very selectively. What have you done, and where have you spoken out about abortion rights being trampled on in Texas? Not saying that you can't choose your issues like everyone else does, but don't pretend that you are defending "liberty".

ctrlp 5y ago
The trampling of liberty I'm concerned about has to do with the Federal (central) government abrogating constitutionally mandated restraints on the Federal government and taking over powers that by law belong to the States. The 'right' to abortion is far downstream from the Constitution, whether you agree with it or not.
iammisc 5y ago
If you consider abortion to be direct murder, there is no right to abortion. Refusing a covid vaccine is at best making a decision that may kill someone else. We allow these sorts of decisions all the time whether it be not limiting the amount of alcohol an adult can legally serve, smoking, etc. While the arguments against covid vaccine mandates are similar to pro abortion arguments, the similarities are only superficial. The arguments are slightly different because the circumstances are and this is where the comparison breaks down.