5 ms·

> We still don't really understand how diet affects health long term. I thought it was pretty clear that we do. Go talk to any physician and they will tell you

by josho 5y ago

> We still don't really understand how diet affects health long term. I thought it was pretty clear that we do. Go talk to any physician and they will tell you the 3 things you control to increase your chances of a long & healthy life are: 1. Limit alcohol/tobacco 2. exercise frequently 3. eat a healthy diet Are you suggesting for #3 they have no data to back that recommendation up?

tomrod 5y ago
Eh, yes there is data but the association is not clear and straightforward that diet is the necessary or sufficient condition for metabolic or cardiovascular diseases. What you're quoting is, in healthcare, called the "standard of care" and is the workflow that is recommended for doctors (i.e. less likely to be sued for malpractice if they follow the route). Most doctors are technicians, not researchers establishing causal claims with strong data. Please don't misread, I agree with you in principle. I am simply pointing out there are nuances.
- mgkimsal 5y ago
  "Most doctors are technicians, not researchers" Thanks. Very succinct, and helps me frame my medical interactions a bit more clearly now.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  You are wrong. There are great volumes of evidence that keeping a low weight and keeping macronutrients roughly in some gap makes you live longer. I'm not sure what is left to be talking about. Specific fad diets?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomrod 5y ago
    I'm happy to be corrected. Can you provide some sources? And what about edge cases where people follow low caloric diets and persist their weight?
    - Dma54rhs 5y ago
      Are you seriously arguing edge cases here? It's on level with anti vaxxer claiming his smoking overweight uncle had no problems with corona hence we both don't get vaccinated.
      - tomrod 5y ago
        I'm not arguing edge cases. I'm requesting sources and population considerations. Were I to argue, I would have included source references.
        R0b0t1 5y ago
        This stuff is presented in middleschool and highschool health classes and pretty much everywhere on the internet if you look for life improvement advice. Weight is perhaps the single most strongly linked indicator of life expectancy. What is your level of education? I need to know so I can give you sources I am sure you can use.
        tomrod 5y ago
        Sufficient to understand metasurveys of relevant literature and models of dynamical systems, insufficient to grok or critique individual studies outside clear statistical issues.
        R0b0t1 5y ago
        https://sci-hub.st/10.1371/journal.pmed.1001673 https://sci-hub.st/10.1371/journal.pmed.1001673 from 2014, but this has been known for decades if not centuries. A lay explanation at https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-finds-extreme-obesity-may-shorten-life-expectancy-14-years https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-find.... This is simply the first I found. If you are able to understand this literature I am quite confused as to how you can't find it yourself -- the associations go far deeper, with increased fat intake causing plaque buildup that eventually leads to heart problems. Obesity under class III also shortens life expectancy. Realize also that per what is laid out in that review someone who is 6" ~180lbs is obese, even if it mostly muscle. Even if it is obesity caused by muscle instead of fat, you don't live as long.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    I don’t believe that there are any studies which show that macronutrient percentages make you live longer.
BurningFrog 5y ago
They have a lot of recommendations. The problem is that they change radically about once per decade. ~10 years ago they still thought eating fat made you fat, and recommended high carb diets. Perhaps the 2021 recommendations are finally the correct ones. But how do I know that?
- josho 5y ago
  Yeh, that's science. As we learn more the guidance is refined. Generally speaking for decades the guidance has been to eat a well balanced diet—that hasn't changed. There is also a second issue, government agencies have been co-opted by industry to make recommendations not supported by the science. I'm specifically thinking about recommendations around fat&sugar, the same thing you called out that indicates the problem is not the science but rather regulatory capture.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by josho 5y ago

tomrod 5y ago

Eh, yes there is data but the association is not clear and straightforward that diet is the necessary or sufficient condition for metabolic or cardiovascular diseases. What you're quoting is, in healthcare, called the "standard of care" and is the workflow that is recommended for doctors (i.e. less likely to be sued for malpractice if they follow the route). Most doctors are technicians, not researchers establishing causal claims with strong data. Please don't misread, I agree with you in principle. I am simply pointing out there are nuances.

mgkimsal 5y ago
"Most doctors are technicians, not researchers" Thanks. Very succinct, and helps me frame my medical interactions a bit more clearly now.
R0b0t1 5y ago
You are wrong. There are great volumes of evidence that keeping a low weight and keeping macronutrients roughly in some gap makes you live longer. I'm not sure what is left to be talking about. Specific fad diets?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tomrod 5y ago
  I'm happy to be corrected. Can you provide some sources? And what about edge cases where people follow low caloric diets and persist their weight?
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    Are you seriously arguing edge cases here? It's on level with anti vaxxer claiming his smoking overweight uncle had no problems with corona hence we both don't get vaccinated.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      I'm not arguing edge cases. I'm requesting sources and population considerations. Were I to argue, I would have included source references.
      - R0b0t1 5y ago
        This stuff is presented in middleschool and highschool health classes and pretty much everywhere on the internet if you look for life improvement advice. Weight is perhaps the single most strongly linked indicator of life expectancy. What is your level of education? I need to know so I can give you sources I am sure you can use.
        tomrod 5y ago
        Sufficient to understand metasurveys of relevant literature and models of dynamical systems, insufficient to grok or critique individual studies outside clear statistical issues.
        R0b0t1 5y ago
        https://sci-hub.st/10.1371/journal.pmed.1001673 https://sci-hub.st/10.1371/journal.pmed.1001673 from 2014, but this has been known for decades if not centuries. A lay explanation at https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-finds-extreme-obesity-may-shorten-life-expectancy-14-years https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-find.... This is simply the first I found. If you are able to understand this literature I am quite confused as to how you can't find it yourself -- the associations go far deeper, with increased fat intake causing plaque buildup that eventually leads to heart problems. Obesity under class III also shortens life expectancy. Realize also that per what is laid out in that review someone who is 6" ~180lbs is obese, even if it mostly muscle. Even if it is obesity caused by muscle instead of fat, you don't live as long.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  I don’t believe that there are any studies which show that macronutrient percentages make you live longer.

BurningFrog 5y ago

They have a lot of recommendations. The problem is that they change radically about once per decade. ~10 years ago they still thought eating fat made you fat, and recommended high carb diets. Perhaps the 2021 recommendations are finally the correct ones. But how do I know that?

josho 5y ago
Yeh, that's science. As we learn more the guidance is refined. Generally speaking for decades the guidance has been to eat a well balanced diet—that hasn't changed. There is also a second issue, government agencies have been co-opted by industry to make recommendations not supported by the science. I'm specifically thinking about recommendations around fat&sugar, the same thing you called out that indicates the problem is not the science but rather regulatory capture.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]